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[Aldernut]

I decided to try out 4.2.1 Vanilla.

Even in the first dungeon level, I'm running into long corridors which obviously end in a secret door. Previously, I would have found one in a few rounds by searching, yet now it's not possible.

I don't understand why.

It's not immersive and it limits player agency. It also leads into these kind of situations, where map design isn't congruent with changed gameplay options. It's been in various old roguelikes for decades for a reason.

Is there something obvious I'm missing? If not, please note my respectful protest.

[Estie]

There are no hidden doors anymore, only traps. The dead ends you encountered were just that.

Searching still exists, but is done automatically and cant be improved on by pressing a key. There is no gameplay mechanic to improve on your chances to find traps except wearing gear with +searching or casting the relevant spell (mages get it, no one else I dont think).

Traps are fewer overall and there are patterns which youll eventually learn; but mostly, I suggest ignoring the issue and just dealing with found traps as appropriate. Apart from the old annoying trapdoors, the only ones posing a real threat are summoning traps. Triggering explosive traps on chests destroys the content. Traps come in two kinds - mechanical and magical - and the chance to disarm either varies depending on class/race and is displayed on the character screen. Wormtongue and others still can create traps.

Personally I havent bothered carrying disarm devices hitherto; however, I am reconsidering this policy when playing toons with bad disarm skill to ensure chest drops.

[Selkie]

There are no hidden doors anymore, only traps. The dead ends you encountered were just that.

There are lots of hidden doors, they might not be at dead ends any more, but they're there

[Estie]

Really ? I seem to remember they were removed...my bad then.

I am trying to reconcile this information with my playing experience. So when I have information outside searching, for example from magic mapping or ESP, that there might be a secret door at some spot, I can do nothing to find it ?

[Nick]

Secret doors are now immediately recognised on standing next to them, or by detect doors (which almost no-one gets now).

One of the reasons for this change was the gameplay pattern of seeing on obvious secret door location (or worse knowing there's one in a room you've come downstairs into), and then having to spam 's' until it appears

[Estie]

Ah, thanks. So basically I remembered right - "secret" doors are automatically detected, so not really secret. Thats reassuring.

[Aldernut]

Secret doors are now immediately recognised on standing next to them, or by detect doors (which almost no-one gets now).

One of the reasons for this change was the gameplay pattern of seeing on obvious secret door location (or worse knowing there's one in a room you've come downstairs into), and then having to spam 's' until it appears

But why is this bad?

I mean, by removing it, also emergent gameplay is removed. Stuff like "This is a long tunnel. There's probably a secret door, but I can't see it. Do I spend time searching while running out of light, growing hungry and possibly getting more monsters to come here, or do I cut my losses and go elsewhere?"

In a room you described, the emergent gameplay is similar. Do I search, go back up the stairs or use alternative detection measures?

With traps, situations are lost where you know to be traps. Places such as heavily trapped treasure vaults can't now be searched, which is the kind of meticulous adventuring roguelikes have. What would Indiana Jones do?

On top of this comes immersion and agency. People can search for traps and secret doors, but now, here, you can't, even when you need to. Instead of being given a choice of action, the game makes the choice for you.

And then there's tradition. I remember playing Nethack in the early 90s - it had traps, secret doors and searching. That's around 30 years ago. Why so long? I think because it's been a good feature, which offers exactly emergent gameplay, player agency and immersion.

[backwardsEric]

I mean, by removing it, also emergent gameplay is removed. Stuff like "This is a long tunnel. There's probably a secret door, but I can't see it. Do I spend time searching while running out of light, growing hungry and possibly getting more monsters to come here, or do I cut my losses and go elsewhere?"

In a room you described, the emergent gameplay is similar. Do I search, go back up the stairs or use alternative detection measures?

There is still a choice the player can make in those two cases. One can go elsewhere, use some sort of magic mapping if available, or walk/run to the end of the long corridor or around the perimeter of the room to see if there's a secret door. The drawback of the last is similar to that for searching in earlier versions: more turns spent in the dungeon (though the extra turns from pressing 's' are no longer there).

[Nick]

I have given this some thought, and come up against the problem that fully explaining why this is bad - or rather why it is no longer in Angband - would require a summary of years (probably decades) of discussion and player experience in the Angband community. These things did not happen suddenly, but rather as the result of a long process of trying to get the game mechanic that best suits this game.

I'll try to illustrate with the example of traps (and I hope I have my history close enough to correct). Originally we have traps, and the player can search for them, and maybe some classes have magic to deal with them.
This seems good, but then how often should the player search, and when? Some players learn by experience when traps are likely to be present and can make an informed choice (and I guess we only see Indiana Jones searching for traps when there is one there because that's how movie heroes work, and he doesn't do it as often as someone has to in a winning game of Angband).
But for many players it's just a randomish chore with arbitrary punishments, and for those with obsessive tendencies (in my experience, not under-represented in roguelike communities) it can be psychologically painful. So we introduce more magic to detect traps, until every spellcasting class gets a utility "Detect Traps" spell fairly early on.
But now what about warriors? And isn't it unfair that you can be killed by a pit trap on level 1 before you can detect it? So we nerf low level traps, and make rods of Trap Location easy to find. Now trap finding is straightforward, and everyone has access to it, and we even make marks in the dungeon showing where traps have been detected and where they haven't.
But now everyone can detect traps all the time, and the only chance to hit a trap unexpectedly is if you forget to detect - so the "oops I hit a trap" moment only teaches us to always remember to detect, and there is no interesting player choice remaining.

The current system in Angband is that the player has a (and one only) chance to notice a trap, depending on their searching skill. So while there's no tactical control over individual traps, there is a strategic decision (race, class, equipment) on what level of trap-hitting risk the player is prepared to accept. It undoubtedly doesn't mimic how traps work in relevant books or movies, or even in pen and paper RPGs, but a game the size of Angband is a completely different animal.

Of course, a different direction could have been taken at any of the decision points above, and we would have a different game. But we have Angband of the 20s, not Nethack of the 90s. The core gameplay of modern Angband, in my opinion, is that it has clear, consistent ways that the world works, and emergent gameplay comes from the interactions between these; and that these systems are generally designed to present the player with interesting gameplay choices.

I hope this has been helpful, or at least not unhelpful

[Selkie]

Good reply, thanks Nick.

I remember first playing around 1995 and the trap and searching mechanic was really exciting. But at this time everything was really exciting (and also I didn't know any different). Back then I was, by today's standards, a mediocre player who didn't really understand half the dungeon strategies. Nowadays it would be such a chore having to go through all the searching mechanic just to try to keep low level characters alive. These days I'm rocketing to level 40 in the space of a few hours. Back then I was literally crawling (and save scumming) my way up the ladder.

[Aldernut]

I have given this some thought, and come up against the problem that fully explaining why this is bad - or rather why it is no longer in Angband - would require a summary of years (probably decades) of discussion and player experience in the Angband community. These things did not happen suddenly, but rather as the result of a long process of trying to get the game mechanic that best suits this game.

I'll try to illustrate with the example of traps (and I hope I have my history close enough to correct). Originally we have traps, and the player can search for them, and maybe some classes have magic to deal with them.
This seems good, but then how often should the player search, and when? Some players learn by experience when traps are likely to be present and can make an informed choice (and I guess we only see Indiana Jones searching for traps when there is one there because that's how movie heroes work, and he doesn't do it as often as someone has to in a winning game of Angband).
But for many players it's just a randomish chore with arbitrary punishments, and for those with obsessive tendencies (in my experience, not under-represented in roguelike communities) it can be psychologically painful. So we introduce more magic to detect traps, until every spellcasting class gets a utility "Detect Traps" spell fairly early on.
But now what about warriors? And isn't it unfair that you can be killed by a pit trap on level 1 before you can detect it? So we nerf low level traps, and make rods of Trap Location easy to find. Now trap finding is straightforward, and everyone has access to it, and we even make marks in the dungeon showing where traps have been detected and where they haven't.
But now everyone can detect traps all the time, and the only chance to hit a trap unexpectedly is if you forget to detect - so the "oops I hit a trap" moment only teaches us to always remember to detect, and there is no interesting player choice remaining.

The current system in Angband is that the player has a (and one only) chance to notice a trap, depending on their searching skill. So while there's no tactical control over individual traps, there is a strategic decision (race, class, equipment) on what level of trap-hitting risk the player is prepared to accept. It undoubtedly doesn't mimic how traps work in relevant books or movies, or even in pen and paper RPGs, but a game the size of Angband is a completely different animal.

Of course, a different direction could have been taken at any of the decision points above, and we would have a different game. But we have Angband of the 20s, not Nethack of the 90s. The core gameplay of modern Angband, in my opinion, is that it has clear, consistent ways that the world works, and emergent gameplay comes from the interactions between these; and that these systems are generally designed to present the player with interesting gameplay choices.

I hope this has been helpful, or at least not unhelpful

But Nick - don't you see what's happened here?

By your own words, all this time people have been complaining about traps - to the extent that they find them psychologically painful - and the primary no-cost way to find them has been taken away.

You're also saying that all spellcasting classes have Detect Traps at a fairly low level. I checked - the only class that has the spell is mage. Rogue too, I gather.

With mage, that means using a significant portion of mana to trap detection. And mana is the primary combat power of a mage. I cannot actively search to save mana.

Now, as another class I could circumvent this by buying scrolls of trap detection. However, there aren't any available. Would I to buy staves or scrolls of magic mapping - do they even detect traps? - it would use all of my early game money. Instead of having a simple choice to search, I now have a character which chooses between weapons and armor or trap detection. The first is mandatory, the second is not, so it's not really a choice at all.

There are rings of searching available at a fairly low price. What they mean, effectively, is using the ring slots for an uncertain, passive boost. The effect of this is making characters one-sided to circumvent lack of searching. Instead of many options, I again have only one.

[Sphara]

Personally, the biggest psychological pain to me came from hitting (s)earch all the time. Automatic search system of full LOS is far better imo. I never did rate +search item high earlier and I do not rate it high today either. But traps are there, so it's not completely negligible. Wand/rod of disarm trap is a good choice to carry unless your inventory is stacked with great items.

Race, class and character level all affect your search%. Not just items you find. Kobold and High-elf are the races with best searching skill, rogue naturally is the best class. Hitting s all the time to avoid falling in trap door on a level with great promise of a treasure, is something I don't ever want to see again in V.

Oh, and secret doors can be removed the way they are now.

EDIT: If I may add that just give it a chance Aldernut. I like the new system, and I've played from the mid-90's too. I had to get accustomed to new trap mechanics too. Complaining about traps is different than complaining about the chore of searching them. I cannot help if you really like searching for traps and doors and consider that action to be immersive. I just hope you don't find Angband unplayable now, because for me it's more playable today than it ever was.

[Estie]

You're also saying that all spellcasting classes have Detect Traps at a fairly low level. I checked - the only class that has the spell is mage. Rogue too, I gather.

I believe Nick was describing the situation before the last major release.

[Aldernut]

Race, class and character level all affect your search%. Not just items you find. Kobold and High-elf are the races with best searching skill, rogue naturally is the best class. Hitting s all the time to avoid falling in trap door on a level with great promise of a treasure, is something I don't ever want to see again in V.

I hated trapdoors as well. Nothing like suddenly dropping from a special feeling level to a stat-draining monster pit.

However, this is still a problem. The change here is that you now have only _one_ chance to detect the trap and no option for second chances. You don't detect that trapdoor in your LOS, dropping through it is a matter of pure chance. You can't avoid what you don't know is there.

With searching, you have a chance to detect it every time. That way, searching is valuable in places especially likely to contain traps - like treasure vaults. Here my own choice for through search can keep my paws on the treasure.

[archolewa]

Admittedly, I'm a new player, so the only Angband I've ever known is 4.1.3(? just before 4.2.0) and on. I have put a fair number of hours into Frogcomposband, which does have manual searching trap detection and all that stuff though.

In my experience, I don't think manual searching adds anything. If anything it detracts from the game (though by a negligible amount), because spamming 's' is SOOOOO tedious. I don't want to spend precious time mashing the 's' key to find secret doors and traps. So in Frog, I just straight up ignore them. They're random "the game has made your life slightly more interesting for a few rounds" events as far as I'm concerned, until you get to vaults. But by then I'll have a Rod of Detection. So meh.

I did however waste way too much time when I was first playing Frog manually searching for secret doors because I couldn't find a downstairs. Now, I carry some Magic Mapping scrolls in the early dungeon precisely to use in those situations. Because walking around smashing the 's' button is incredibly tedious, and I will do anything to avoid engaging with that mechanic.

And, incidentally, Vanilla has a neat feature where traps can only be magically disabled for a short period of time, so there's some incentive to get the loot and get out before traps regenerate and you have to burn another charge on your wand. I find that much more compelling than manual search. It also does a much better job in ratcheting up the tension I think, because you know there's a problem there but you don't know when exactly it'll pop up back up.

If we want a more compelling trap minigame, I'd rather see less "search blindly for traps" and more "a variety of ways of dealing with traps you know are there." That I think is what makes the traps in Indiana Jones compelling. Not hours searching for traps that aren't there. But rather minutes trying to figure out how to bypass the trap he knows is there.

(Incidentally, I feel this way about tabletop D&D as well. Having to explicitly tell the DM "we search for traps" is obnoxious, and just slows the game down as far as I'm concerned.)