Preparation for Angband 4.2.1: classes

[Nick]

OK, while we've got this open, here's a list of things we could give to rogues:

• Mana burn
• Monster traps
• Sling proficiency (probably extra shots)
• Backstab
• Even better throwing (I haven't thoroughly tested how good it is in the nightlies, but I'm pretty sure there's room for improvement)

And while we're getting crazy, there's always the possibility of doing O/FA style specialty abilities...

[Pete Mack]

Oh, well if you add mana burn, I will take back every bad thing I said about rogues being nerfed.

I don't think that rogues are unwinnable, just they don't have much character anymore. They have one gimmick left: be stealthy and have uber detection (although no mapping for some reason, which is certainly in character for a floor loot specialist.) That gets old fast.

[wobbly]

I agree with David on fox form, though I think I'd like to try a hobbit druid before reaching a final opinion. My half troll druid was very much melee until the final fight, I didn't really use many spells because it was constantly easier to turn into a fox & bif things. Final fight was LOS cheese using eagle form. This was ridiculously easy to keep reseting when you move at 3x speed, Morgoth would parallel the corridor & when he got a couple of steps away - eagle & reset. Not sure it still works now he area tunnels. Eagle was strong but it was a little disappointing it didn't have another use. I guess you can melee nightmares & titans using its confusion resistance, but outside movement speed it doesn't have much.

Add sling bonuses to them as well and my plan to turn V into FA will be complete

When are rogues getting monster traps?

[DavidMedley]

I have to play more druids to cement my opinion on this, but to me the drawback of the shifted forms in general is losing two turns to heal since you can't use a potion or an escape in shifted form; you have to shift, quaff, shift back, and then resume the fight, getting hit as you do so.

Shifting back doesn't take a turn. This is the great gift given to shapeshifters! In a world where shifting back does take a turn the forms would need to be more powerful.

[Nick]

Nick-- out of curiousity, why did Rogue lose 2 hit dice? It already lost CON and STR. Add in the loss of buffing and there's not much left to the class. (Stealing is a nearly useless gimmick, unless you add a high level "detect objects on monster" bolt spell. Yeah, it is powerful, but you would lose any artifacts if you abandon the fight.)

Well, the idea was that all the classes should have a distinct feeling to them - for rogues that was stealth and trickery. Certainly their melee has been nerfed a bit, but in the context of re-balancing everything, not just in isolation. Arguably they were a bit OP before, with most of the advantages of warriors plus stealth and a ton of magic. Notice that they also have good throwing ability, and throwing is a thing now - more so in the nightlies.

Note that I'm not trying to make rogues less fun, but the idea was the whole game was going to be a bit harder in 4.2. Note that the rogue competition had several winners, so clearly they haven't been nerfed too hard.

Really I think if we want to give Rogues something class specific it should be a backstab bonus for hitting a sleeping opponent. Plays well with the high stealth, and the fact that they're sort of a warrior-mage hybrid.

Add sling bonuses to them as well and my plan to turn V into FA will be complete

[Chud]

I have to play more druids to cement my opinion on this, but to me the drawback of the shifted forms in general is losing two turns to heal since you can't use a potion or an escape in shifted form; you have to shift, quaff, shift back, and then resume the fight, getting hit as you do so.

[archolewa]

I will agree that stealing is useless, Ive been playing a lot of Rogue lately and I never user it. Similarly with the spell that lets you steal and run away. At first I thought it could be useful as a guaranteed escape, except the spell has a very short duration and you seem to only teleport If your theft succeeds.

Really I think if we want to give Rogues something class specific it should be a backstab bonus for hitting a sleeping opponent. Plays well with the high stealth, and the fact that they're sort of a warrior-mage hybrid.

[Pete Mack]

Nick-- out of curiousity, why did Rogue lose 2 hit dice? It already lost CON and STR. Add in the loss of buffing and there's not much left to the class. (Stealing is a nearly useless gimmick, unless you add a high level "detect objects on monster" bolt spell. Yeah, it is powerful, but you would lose any artifacts if you abandon the fight.)

[DavidMedley]

I don't have a problem with the Druid having a melee form to shapeshift into early on. It's pretty fun, actually. I just don't think "Fox" should be the go-to melee form, and blows[2] moves[1] is crazy good at a time when you almost certainly have 1.0 blows.

[Voovus]

I've played a few melee-oriented druids. I don't think the Fox is OP (v4.1.3). It does outdo the other druid shapes, but I'd argue that's because the others are too weak or too niche.

The bear usually does a little bit more damage than the fox. However:
- the Con bonus is very minor, as your health doesn't increase when you shapeshift into a bear; if the bear had +10Con, I can imagine running round as a bear so as not to have to shapeshift into the form. This would be useless with maxed out Con, though.
- the Stealth penalty is massive compared to the fox, especially when taking the movement speed into account.
- the bear seems weaker than a classical fighter character, while bearing (no pun intented) the no-item-use penalty.
- Bear Form appears ridiculously late in the game (clvl 40 - some of us like to be done with M by then!). If this is supposed to be the druid's melee form, it ought to appear much earlier, like clvl 20. At the moment, there's no option but to use Fox as the melee form for most of the game. Thematically, let me also note that Angband's Beorn is very much not a level 40 druid.

Short version: Change bear from 1 extra blow to 2 and make available earlier.

[DavidMedley]

[*]Change fox from 2 extra blows to 1
Opinions?

Fox was so freaking good that I'd start here. Doesn't seem like it should be a dominant melee form.

[Derakon]

How obvious is that 30% improvement? It may be that fox looks better than bear using the stats that are obvious to the player. Sorry, I haven't played any druids yet so I don't actually know; this is speculation.

[Nick]

Quick comment about druid & OP fox form. This is overpowering other forms. Why would I use bear if fox is almost as good in melee, costs 2 SPs, has better fail rates & is faster moving?

Currently bear is typically about 30% better than fox in melee. Main options seem to be

1. Leave it as is, as 30% is really quite a bit
2. Change fox from 2 extra blows to 1
3. Change bear from 1 extra blow to 2

Opinions?

I should mention, too - DavidMedley and I are engaged in a significant revamp of the blackguard (where he does all the work and then I criticise him), so we'll get that out before too long for testing.

[Anarchic Fox]

Thanks! I got lucky and found poison resistance early, so perhaps that's why I didn't appreciate it.

[Hounded]

I loved Pukelman for the poison immunity (and others). I think of it as "Tank" form.

Fox: Paratrooper Form
Eagle: Scout Form
Pukelman: Tank Form

It wasn't until Bear that I started to feel it didn't have it's own niche so much.