Preparation for Angband 4.2.1: classes

[Bogatyr]

+1 to letting tap disenchant items for mana. I'm in the camp of not nerfing mages since I think that their downsides compensate for their strengths nicely, while still keeping them interesting. Although I guess if they get nerfed I can continue playing old versions

Sure, but then you don't get all the new goodness, which is why it's worth speaking up for behavior that is fine and doesn't need tweaking.

The mage already suffered a huge loss of utility and other spells (I'm missing *Destruction* a lot, spear of light, stone to mud, elemental brand, enchant, etc.) with the spellbook overhaul. The new tap/recharge behavior goes a long way to make up for those losses....except if it's nerfed, then there's much less compensation.

[Saru]

+1 to letting tap disenchant items for mana. I'm in the camp of not nerfing mages since I think that their downsides compensate for their strengths nicely, while still keeping them interesting. Although I guess if they get nerfed I can continue playing old versions

[Bogatyr]

In fact, I'd like to see tap *expanded*. Why not be able to tap any magical item (except for artifacts) to "suck out" their enchantments and convert them to mana (leaving them +0+0 afterwards)? All of a sudden, those piles of useless "good" items now have a viable use! Just like how all the useless wands/staffs are a pleasure to encounter now with tap!

[Bogatyr]

Gotta speak up for mages -- I think the 4.2.0 recharge/tap behavior is spot on and adds a lot of fun and new strategies to mages and should remain as is. Mages are masters of magical energy and devices: storage, retrieval, and usage (device bonus), it makes sense that they are very good at it.

They are also masters of battlefield management, and they must be, because with low HP they cannot stand in the open against any single or group enemy with instakill attack potential. Dimension door is great as is in 4.2.0, don't mess with it further.

Mages have crap HP, crap STR, crap fighting, so they need just compensation to remain fun: 4.2.0 has already seen the loss of several key utility spells (spear of light and stone to mud) that requires burning two precious inventory slots to make up for. The price of the mage is early game tiptoe-ing and the compensation should remain great end game power.

If fast cast is seen as too overpowering in the endgame, give it a character speed dependent backoff curve. Since it replaces haste self, always a key moment in any mage's maturation, reducing it below 2x in the early game (where character speed is 1.0) is far too much of a penalty. If mana storm is too strong, give it a higher failure rate.

Summary: I find mages in 4.2.0 *FUN*. I did not like the loss of utility spells at first, but the compensation from recharge, device bonus, tap, fast cast, and dimension door made up for it. If those are going to be nerfed, there should be equivalent compensation. I hope they're not, because again, they're fun!

[archolewa]

I was imagining that only Rogues can throw potions offensively, and they have a high device skill, so youd have to make sure the potions do something different from wands.

One option is that you dont add any potions, and when a Rogue throws them, they do the inverse of what they do when you drink them. So CCW does damage and inflicts a bunch of statuses. Obviously the damage would need to be capped, or potions of Life would make Rogues insanely OP.

The idea is that crafty Rogues are able to poison or tweak the potions a bit. After all there is a fine line between medicine and poison.

[DavidMedley]

That's an easy add, should the powers that be approve it. The value of it is +10 to-hit for the crit calc only.

[wobbly]

• Backstab

There's a little check in critical hits "is debuffed" that's checking for held, stunned or confused. Even if you don't add in full on backstab I feel this should be checking sleep & possibly fear.

[wobbly]

I'm not a big fan of throwing potions. I mean I'd be a little confused why a dwarf is throwing its beer at me, but apart from that I don't think they work that way. Halls of Mist has throwing powders and Sangband has alchemical grenades. I'm not sure either really fit but they are certainly ideas.

[Adam]

@Adan--can't bring back attack potions without getting rid of use-ID. Detonations and Death mean it is impossible past the early levels in old versions of V. I suppose you could make them leave you with 1 HP (min) instead.

Good point, i did not think about this issue. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Pete Mack]

@Adan--can't bring back attack potions without getting rid of use-ID. Detonations and Death mean it is impossible past the early levels in old versions of V. I suppose you could make them leave you with 1 HP (min) instead.

[DavidMedley]

Yeah, I agree with all that. I remember in the old days you'd look at a book as a half-caster and several spells would be XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. Had a lot more reason to leave books at home. But I think the current system is better and will continue to improve with refinement.

[Pete Mack]

@David-- the big book stack is intentional, so other classes don't get more free inventory slots than warriors. And in any case, some of the books just aren't worth carrying for half-casters (and eventually for full-casters, too.) MB2 and PB1 often get left at home by all classes, and only Mage is likely to carry Raal's, etc.
Nick cut the book count, but it is balanced by losing essentially all buffing and defensive spells, so all classes carry a significant fraction of !rFire, !rCold, !rPois, _Speed, -TO, !Hero, -STM, where previously the were largely covered (and more than covered!) by various spell books.

[DavidMedley]

Less Books is More

I'm going through old_class.txt to see if there's any effects in there I can steal (so I won't have to program them myself). It's a real reminder how much I love the slimmed-down spell lists! Of course, there's a lot of pressure to make each spell valuable in the new format. But that's so much better than just throwing a bunch of spells at the player, conceding that many are not very useful. All the hybrid casters had NINE books!!

[Adam]

Something that I think could be interesting if you want to increase throwing, is give rogues the ability to throw potions for effects. I know that lots of roguelikes let you throw potions at monsters to inflict statues on them (i.e. throw a potion of blindness to blind an opponent). I don't know quite how this would work since almost every potion in Angband is beneficial, but it's something to consider.

We could have more attack potions which activate for certain spells (various ball spells, the necro's noxious fumes etc, also the existing sleep/poison/blindness/paralyze potions could be used this way). The difference to wands/rods would be that these don't rely on magic device skill but throwing (so more suitable for warrior types).

[archolewa]

OK, while we've got this open, here's a list of things we could give to rogues:

• Mana burn
• Monster traps
• Sling proficiency (probably extra shots)
• Backstab
• Even better throwing (I haven't thoroughly tested how good it is in the nightlies, but I'm pretty sure there's room for improvement)

And while we're getting crazy, there's always the possibility of doing O/FA style specialty abilities...

Are there any advantages that throwing has over just using a launcher? It always seems kind of tedious to me, because I always have to use 2+ keystrokes to use it rather than just pressing Tab with a launcher. Plus, throwers would presumably have to be *very* powerful to justify being better than the x2-x4 bonuses that launchers give.

Something that I think could be interesting if you want to increase throwing, is give rogues the ability to throw potions for effects. I know that lots of roguelikes let you throw potions at monsters to inflict statues on them (i.e. throw a potion of blindness to blind an opponent). I don't know quite how this would work since almost every potion in Angband is beneficial, but it's something to consider.

Or, while we're on the subject of potions, what if instead of stealing, rogues got a quiver for potions or wands? It makes sense to me that a crafty trickster would have a few tricks up their sleeves for storing an extra potion or wand or two.

What is Mana burn?

I'm not a fan of Sling proficiency. Rangers already have the "I'm uber good at range weapons" thing down. Plus, I at least have never encountered an artifact sling, which means that ability will probably only be useful in the early game, and I don't generally have trouble there. The midgame gives me trouble, but that's more to do with not being particularly good at fragile sneaksters.

Monster traps is presumably laying down traps for monsters? That could be fun.