Preparing for 4.2 release

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I disagree, "is weaker" is as much a reason as "is stronger". Though for the most part I'm fine with it either way (xp penalties or no xp penalties).

I can understand that viewpoint, having won with every race/class combination (before the new classes were added), but apart from challenges for experienced players I doubt new players will be playing those without the experience penalties that balanced things out a bit. Nonetheless, like you, I'm fine with it either way.

[Chud]

I still think the race xp modifiers have value, or else there's just not much reason to play less powerful races.

I don't think XP modifiers have value, because I don't think that's the right way to weight one race over another. I think they should all have the same XP progression, and they should each have specific advantages and disadvantages (hopefully roughly in balance) that make them appeal differently to different players' styles of play.

[wobbly]

Not sure if this has been fixed since, but I'm looking at Sphara's necromancer win and the lantern of shadows says "intensity 3 light"

[Nick]

Not sure if this has been fixed since, but I'm looking at Sphara's necromancer win and the lantern of shadows says "intensity 3 light"

Apparently it has (although I don't recall when) - I just generated one and it behaved correctly.

[Nick]

Attached. Hope that is what you need.
I'm playing a separate one without persistent levels, seems to run smoothly.

Thanks, that was very helpful. Bug found and fixed - your savefile should work fine now. I assume no-one was really playing persistent levels, because this bug was completely disastrous

[Vorczar]

Thanks, that was very helpful. Bug found and fixed - your savefile should work fine now. I assume no-one was really playing persistent levels, because this bug was completely disastrous

Since it was introduced I like to play persistent without WOR and it feels more "real". If I can't defeat an OOD unique, or a can't get into a walled pit, I go back later. I also stash hoards of good randarts, Life potions and Mass Banish and go back for them before the Morgoth battle.

Thanks for all the cool stuff you've done to Angband. I just registered to post about this bug but I've played since Moria.
I'm psyched to play the final version of a Necromancer.

[Nick]

Thanks, that was very helpful. Bug found and fixed - your savefile should work fine now.

I should have said - your savefile will work fine in the next build, which should be out soon.

[Nick]

New builds up on the nightlies page and angband.live with the following changes:

• Lights back on the ignore by type menu as before
• Fix to bug which made an extra step get run sometimes, particularly into traps and after recall
• Fix horrendous crash bug in the persistent levels birth option
• Bugfixes and improvements to the necromancer Command spell, including:
  • Better descriptions of objects dropped by commanded monsters
  • Fix to a bug which crashed the game every time a monster with acid, electric or poison melee attacked another monster
  • Added a command to release a commanded monster ('r')
  • Improve messages
  • List valid monster commands if an invalid one is entered
  • Fix a bug causing crashes when a monster tried to inflict another with melee paralysis
• In-game helpfiles gutted to just leave basic command and symbol lists

Note that the full help files are now in the docs directory, and are in .rst format - so fairly human-readable and even better browser-readable. They are also here. Note also that the help files have not been updated beyond 4.1.3; that will happen soon (and before 4.2 release).

[Diego Gonzalez]

In this last build I cant pick up money when a monster is in LOS, and some keystrokes are ignored in some situations I cant figure out.

[gtrudeau88]

Regarding XP penalty question

Why not consider something like what FAAngband did?

FAAngband has no XP penalty at all but the races like high elf start in a more dangerous part of the game, facing higher level monsters from the outset? These races also start with better weaponry to balance out but it's still very challenging.

Here are some suggestions:
- let the weaker races start with better weapons, maybe something they inherited.
- let the weaker races start with more gold at the beginning. Let the high elves, etc start no more than with 100 gold whereas a human get 1000 which would be enough for a bow plus hand weapon, etc
- let the stronger races have a specific vulnerability. Maybe high elves are inheritantly vulnerable to poison or cold, say 10 to 15%?

Just some thoughts.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

New builds up....

(1) Something has gone a little strange with the messages for objects on walkover. The first time @ walks over an object, a message appears regarding the object, however, thereafter one must actually use the look or inspect commands to see what the object is. For example, during melee, one might not have time to pick up an object dropped by a monster, so leave it on the floor until battle is over. Previously, you could walk over those dropped objects and the message would say what it was. Now, nothing, not even that you've walked over an object. You have to check and recheck to make sure you didn't miss something. EDIT: Apparently this happens when there is any other monster in sight. FURTHER EDIT: Also failed several times to pick up ammunition inscribed with "=g" when running over it, have to backtrack and then the ammo is retrieved. Are all these unintended consequences of the "run one too far bug fix"?

(2) While the stripped down command help files are fine, I find it difficult to understand how a newbie is supposed to glean that the stealing command is "+" "alter grid".

(3) Not sure stealing is working. After dozens of attempts for a 16th level Dunadan Rogue to steal from Wormtongue, all he does is shout everytime and wake things up. Not one success in dozens of tries. Maybe just extremely unlucky, but I doubt it.

[fph]

Here are some suggestions:
- let the weaker races start with better weapons, maybe something they inherited.
- let the weaker races start with more gold at the beginning. Let the high elves, etc start no more than with 100 gold whereas a human get 1000 which would be enough for a bow plus hand weapon, etc
- let the stronger races have a specific vulnerability. Maybe high elves are inheritantly vulnerable to poison or cold, say 10 to 15%?

I think we must first agree on what the goal is.

1. The stronger races are easier to play, and hence more newbie-friendly.
2. All races offer a comparable difficulty, hence the stronger races must be nerfed somehow.

Both 1 and 2 are legitimate goals, but they lead to opposite directions. It's a political decision.

An intermediate solution is:

3. The stronger races have drawbacks, but they are drawbacks which matter more to experienced players than to newbies.

The old idea of having an experience penalty fits well with 3. Maybe the XP penalty just needed to be adjusted rather than eliminated? Or maybe the XP penalty doesn't seem like a drawback to newbies, but it's actually harmful because the more time you spend in the game, the more likely you are to die (as diving teaches), and then it must be eliminated?

[Nick]

OK, looks like my fix to the running bug has broken pickup. I'll try to get a fix up soonish, but it will probably be a day or two.

On stealing: Uniques are harder to steal from; sleeping monsters are easier to steal from; your stealing skill depends on stealth and DEX; and heavier items are harder to steal. There are three outcomes - success, failure (monster wakes), and complete failure (monster wakes and shouts). If you're getting repeat complete failures, you're not ready to steal from Wormy yet. Good point about the command list.

[Voovus]

Not sure stealing is working. After dozens of attempts for a 16th level Dunadan Rogue to steal from Wormtongue, all he does is shout everytime and wake things up. Not one success in dozens of tries. Maybe just extremely unlucky, but I doubt it.

I'm currently studying the theft mechanic in detail and will hopefully report on it in a few days.

As things stand, a level 16 Dunadan Rogue with no extra stealth bonuses, normal speed and with Dex below 18/50 wouldn't be able to steal even a ring from a sleeping Wormtongue. The maths gets in the way. (Might just pull it off if you slow monster the chap.)

[Nick]

Here are my answers/opinions/feelings on a few of the points that have been brought up recently. I'm trying for the most part to progress the discussion rather than finish it; that said, at some point discussion over the form of 4.2.0 will cease (and I guess discussion on the form of 4.2.1 will start...).

I don't think XP modifiers have value, because I don't think that's the right way to weight one race over another. I think they should all have the same XP progression, and they should each have specific advantages and disadvantages (hopefully roughly in balance) that make them appeal differently to different players' styles of play.

This pretty much sums up my feelings. The argument was made - and accepted by me - that for Humans their only real advantage was their relatively lower XP requirements, which is why all other races now have an XP modifier of 120. I think there is an argument for increasing the XP modifiers for Dunedain and (especially) High-Elves further still, but I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by it. My feeling is that there is no reason for equivalence between races (and please note this is an Angband comment, I'm not being a bigot).

All that said, I do think that having one race strictly better than another (ie no relative disadvantages) is probably not desirable. Given that High-Elves are almost strictly better than Elves (Elves have better disarming skill), I'm probably OK with increasing the High-Elf modifier a bit. Dunedain I would leave where they are - while they are strong, their lack of infravision is a notable disadvantage compared to most other races. I also think it's actually a good thing to have some races which are more new-player friendly.

I have to agree with the push for the spell/scroll to take @ to 66%. It makes sense to me that Elven waybread is the best, but I also think the other magical hunger mechanic should be a better option than rations (which I think of as MREs, they get you by, but not the tastiest things) and certainly should be better than slime molds. Slime molds having a better benefit/weight ratio than the magical scroll just doesn't seem right.

The intent of the food changes is to make food a more integrated part of the game, rather than a dull mini-game which (aside from warriors) gets sidelined quickly. So, philosophically, food should be something enjoyable, and a well-fed character should be better equipped to face danger in some sense. The flip-side to this is that a character that doesn't eat, but rather just magically removes their hunger, should not get the same benefits as a character that eats actual food.

Now I think that the food system as it is in current master has gone some way toward this goal, but could still use some improvements. My current thoughts are:

• Ranger's Satisfy Hunger spell should instead be something like Foraging, and should give a better food value
• A greater variety of food should become available, with varying benefits

I would like to see a pre-game option to start stores close together, so that I don't have to waste useless time scurrying around the screen.

I'm a bit reluctant to include extreme optimisations for players who have won a lot. I'd rather spend my time on improvements for the average player, and I figure if you really want this enough you can hack the game yourself

I would still like to see Non-Flammable Basic Spellbooks added as new items that could be found in the dungeon.

This is a nice idea in some respects, but I feel that having to watch out for your town book supplies is one of the prices a spellcaster pays. Maybe if they were deep and rare enough - how do others feel?

I would like the ability to order my own inventory.

This is do-able, but time-consuming and likely to open a can of bugs. Is this something other people want?

I REALLY WANT the default order of arrows to have SEEKER arrows come AFTER MITHRIL arrows, rather than the reverse, which makes no sense to the usual order of weakest on top.

Currently everything is ordered by cost (and note that ammo is in reverse order to all other gear); mithril arrows are immune to fire and acid damage, which ups their value. This is how the game has always done it, but again I'd be open to change if there's sufficient demand.

Really would like more powerful & useful mushrooms to be found deep in the dungeon.

What sort of thing are you thinking of?

Too many wolf-type creatures appear in the game. Later in the game, they are just a constant minor irritation, as they can't kill you but they are just always there, forcing you to go around killing them so they don't clutter your path or stop you from resting, etc.

The monster changes for 4.2 have possibly made these guys a bit more interesting (read dangerous).

Why do the stores contain huge multiples of items no one is ever going to buy a multiple of at all?

Atmosphere

Also, from 4.1 there are 5 categories of DSM for ignore - basic (Red, Blue, White, Black, Green), multi (Multi-Hued), High (Gold, Shining, Law, Chaos), balance and power.