Let's get rid of hunger

[fizzix]

Since Nick is in the process of slaughtering a whole bunch of sacred cows (and I'm very glad he's doing it) perhaps it's time to ditch the whole hunger mechanic.

Hunger serves no interesting purpose except in ironman games when it eats up an inventory slot. Furthermore because food exists in town, hunger will never be interesting in non-ironman games. It's just a minor annoyance. In other roguelikes hunger clocks are a mechanism to prevent resting, since you rest at the cost of going through hunger.

Even in games which try to make hunger an interesting mechanic (DCSS for example) there are many people who think it's dumb and should be removed. It's hard doing anything compelling like that in Angband.

Are there any good arguments for keeping hunger around?

[Voovus]

I would like to second this.

(Or at least a "no hunger" birth option and see what happens...)

[Sphara]

Playing almost exclusively ironman games, I can pretty confidently say that hunger doesn't play much role there either. You'll need to carry some food on early levels but somewhere around 1500ft, I tend to ditch all comestibles and eat straight from the floor. Only one time I got nearly screwed when I played flavors hidden and ate an un id'd mushroom of purging inside a greater vault.

In DCSS food removal has been an issue for years. There are some game mechanics that are built around food. Mummy not needing food, ghouls getting healed from butchered corpses and high-level spells being hungering. Even with built-in mechanics, it still sucks in DCSS. Angband doesn't need a big overhaul like DCSS would, if food would be removed. Just removal of slow digestion and satisfy hunger scrolls and spell. Would probably keep mushrooms and e)at command still though.

[bunnies]

On a separate note, has anyone ever bought and consumed hard biscuits and flasks of whiskey exlusively on their first trip into the dungeon?

[Derakon]

I'd be fine with at the very least trialling the removal of hunger.

[Thraalbee]

I also play ironman except in competitions and agree hunger is a minor concern even there. But a small change towards easier is still a step in the wrong direction. How about adding drain food to some undeads instead? Like the big J in some variants but much earlier

[Sky]

As a bith option, yes, buth otherwise no. And no removing torch/lantern fuel either.

[Gwarl]

hunger makes green glutton ghosts somewhat irritating

that's the best defense I can come up with for it

my variant has a J and hunger-inflicting attacks and the gorged status though so I want to keep hunger for it

[Nick]

My gut feeling (heh) is that it should be kept, but I'm struggling to articulate why. Here are a few of my thoughts:

• It does sometimes lead to interesting situations - I have occasionally run out of food when I still want to do stuff on a level, and had to forage/quaff healing potions;
• Ironman should IMHO be really hard compared to non-ironman, and this is a move in the opposite direction;
• The game should support a variety of experiences, and this is thinning out that variety.

This last one is something I feel strongly about as maintainer. It has always been a feature that the aim of Angband is to kill Morgoth, but that there's more than one way to do that. I want to be broadening the space of possible game trajectories, and I feel that removing mechanics like hunger is narrowing it.

[Whelk]

The game should support a variety of experiences, and this is thinning out that variety.

This last one is something I feel strongly about as maintainer. It has always been a feature that the aim of Angband is to kill Morgoth, but that there's more than one way to do that. I want to be broadening the space of possible game trajectories, and I feel that removing mechanics like hunger is narrowing it.

I'm not particularly attached to the hunger mechanic, but I appreciate your keeping the above in mind. I've seen games cut all sorts of features and mechanics because they were "annoying" or "not interesting", or to "make the game more efficient", and what ends up being left always seems like a skeletal remnant of what was once a fun and diverse game I loved.

I'm not saying no feature or mechanic should ever be considered for dialing back or even removal, but I'm glad at the general hesitance to toss things on the chopping block.

[Derakon]

As a bith option, yes, buth otherwise no. And no removing torch/lantern fuel either.

I don't think I've seen anyone argue that all light sources should be permanent. The light clock does introduce some interesting choices in the early game, and the consequences of running out of light aren't necessarily game-ending, they just make things a lot harder.

...hm, what if we still had a food clock, but you couldn't starve? Just make Weak apply some substantial debuffs (a flat -5 to all stats, maybe), but ditch the HP damage and periodic paralysis. It'd still be something you'd always want to avoid if at all possible, but running out wouldn't be an immediate death sentence. That would also open up space to play with how common food is, or how quickly the food clock runs down.

I do agree that having monsters that drain your food level is also worth exploring. Green Glutton Ghosts at minimum, Vampires too (gotta replenish that lost blood!), but possibly any monster/effect that drains XP could also make you hungrier.

[Moving Pictures]

Please, no.

Speaking as a guy who had at least one Ironman character die from hunger and another that came within a whisker of doing so ....

... please do not remove the hunger mechanic.

speaking as the recently-addicted rookie, let me try to explain.

It's taken me a bit to grasp that a major part of Angband is inventory choices. Do I keep dagger (a) or rapier (b)? Do I take the dwarven mail or stick with my elven armor? Oh, crap, I can't ditch that leather cap for the helm of telepathy because the cap is the only source of rPois... etc, etc.

Early game management requires juggling food, until scrolls come along. The bigger critters eat more food. (Kobolds eat little, i gather). Ironman troll? Better pack about 15 rations... it's part of the give-and-take.

In fact, I've already voiced my disappointment at the fact feature/class rangers get satisfy as the first castable spell. For me, this ruined one of the milestones of the game. (Along with when CLW becomes of little use; when CSW becomes of little use; when healing becomes the go-to potion, because CCW is now just a way of curing confusion or blindness; oh, a *rod* of TO, etc.)


I will not soon forget an early half-troll experiment (ironman) where I started chugging CLW just to stay alive, and mission objective shifted to finding food/scroll of satisfy/slime mold/slime mold juice.

Angband doesn't need a big overhaul like DCSS would, if food would be removed. Just removal of slow digestion and satisfy hunger scrolls and spell. Would probably keep mushrooms and e)at command still though.

Not so. Also remember that "slow digestion" is a magical item attribute. With the aforementioned seemingly ever-hungry trolls, an item with SDig is a key early-to-midgame find.

In fact, i'd like to see "satisfy hunger" as an item attribute.

[Derakon]

Early game management requires juggling food, until scrolls come along. The bigger critters eat more food. (Kobolds eat little, i gather). Ironman troll? Better pack about 15 rations... it's part of the give-and-take.

Not to discount your very valid opinion, but just to clarify on game mechanics: everyone eats the same amount, but regeneration makes you get hungry faster. So half-trolls will need more food than other races, up until those other races find sources of regeneration themselves.

[EpicMan]

What if you did not regenerate at all while hungry? Then food is a clock on your current run, unless/until you have so many Cure X wounds potions you can ditch it altogether. This could potentially break ironman, unless you made food more plentiful.

But simply removing hunger would be less of a gameplay change than making it meaningful. Yes, it frees a pack slot, but less slots than no-selling did.

And while it technically is making the game easier, it is not going to be a significant difference in ~99% of games (excluding ironman, though apparently not a huge difference there). Plus, the new classes sound like they have been limited, which will more than make up for it.

I would guess making this an option (and default to it) would find it more popular than no-selling. But if you make it an option and it proves to be too unpopular, it's easy to switch back.

[wobbly]

You could make it an adjustable number, hunger-rate, with 0 as off. Then people who want a tougher food clock for ironman can go the other direction.