Class/magic feature branch

[luneya]

Having a character which gets nothing but detections and stuff early might be interesting, but that's not the proper thematic role for a mage. The mage class should have magic missile as the first spell, and then focus primarily on damage spells for the rest of the game (perhaps even to the extreme of having no better detection than a warrior). A class that amounts to "rogue but without the melee" would be better denoted as "illusionist" or something.

[Sky]

i have a different take. i know, that this is only a rough draft, but what is this character supposed to DO ?
the early detect in place of attack is .. weird, but nothing too harsh. well, kinda, but let's call it an advanced class.
but, all that just to get to where you use the same spells that a mage has? because the mage is balanced, you get the spells you need at the level you need them.
this other class has spells you don't need at the start (debatable), spells you do need later on, and then it just becomes a normal mage .. minus a spell or two.

lets look at the classes.

1. warrior: you bonk people on the head.
2. paladin: you also bonk people on the head, and heal.
3. priest: every defensive spell in existence.
4. rogue: multirole with evasion.
5. ranger: melee damage from range, but dependant on arrow supply.
6. mage: limitless weak ranged, and banishment.
7. new mage: ??

[Nick]

OK, this whole magic revamp thing is going to involve some fairly big changes, so there will need to be some robust discussion. Please don't take my responses personally

I can see how making 4 casters all with utility coverd by spells isnt going to work, but I also see a danger of replacing the 2 old casters with a bunch of new hybrids. What is the difference between the pure caster and their hybrid going to be, for 4 schools ?

Short answer is that hybrids will be getting less books and spells, for the most part. I'm also not looking at a "one hybrid per school" model, but rather at picking interesting/thematic classes and the deciding what sort of magic they should get. Also note that hybrids can get different books, not just a subset of the pure caster books; and that there's potential for cross-realm hybrids and more than one non-magical class (if that's what seems to fit the class theme).

Necromancy will need lots of work; in particular I'm looking at possibilities of possession and player shapechange (monster shapechanges will be coming in the monster list revamp). The stuff about spirits and bodies in my original post in the earlier thread is a guide to how I'm thinking about this.

Having a character which gets nothing but detections and stuff early might be interesting, but that's not the proper thematic role for a mage. The mage class should have magic missile as the first spell, and then focus primarily on damage spells for the rest of the game (perhaps even to the extreme of having no better detection than a warrior).

I would actually argue that the defining quality of current mages is their degree of control before and after dealing damage, which goes hand-in-hand with their fragility. So ability to detect, teleport and banish in order to choose battles, and ability to get out when necessary. That said, the new class has two of its five books devoted to attacking, and haven't really lost too many useful attack spells (stinking cloud and rift are the obvious ones).

There seem to be quite a few definite ideas about a what a mage should be - I don't know if this is coming from (current or previous) Angband, from D&D (or similar), or from elsewhere. In any case, I think we should be guided rather than bound by any prior influences.

Note that I'm not even trying to put the "elves should be wise, dwarves intelligent" argument - yet

i have a different take. i know, that this is only a rough draft, but what is this character supposed to DO ?
the early detect in place of attack is .. weird, but nothing too harsh. well, kinda, but let's call it an advanced class.
but, all that just to get to where you use the same spells that a mage has? because the mage is balanced, you get the spells you need at the level you need them.
this other class has spells you don't need at the start (debatable), spells you do need later on, and then it just becomes a normal mage .. minus a spell or two.

lets look at the classes.

1. warrior: you bonk people on the head.
2. paladin: you also bonk people on the head, and heal.
3. priest: every defensive spell in existence.
4. rogue: multirole with evasion.
5. ranger: melee damage from range, but dependant on arrow supply.
6. mage: limitless weak ranged, and banishment.
7. new mage: ??

If you carefully read my previous post, I think you'll find I answered all your questions multiple times

[Tibarius]

ideas

Mages have indeed consistently been the class with the most control. Buffs (including Haste and Resistance, and GoI once upon a time), great detection (though Priests were better late game, awkwardly enough), excellent teleportation, door creation, destruction, banishment, recharage and all perfectly reliable (0% fail, except for recharge). Their damage output has been and should be unimpressive. Why should they be competitive with a warrior or even a ranger, with that level of control.

One thing that seems like it would be a good idea would be to put a wand of magic missile into the starting inventory for people who start with a kit. Maybe a scroll of recharging too, to give people an idea of how the mechanics works? Sort of teach people the new way to play mages.

It is my opinion that if Mages were ever able to ignore devices as a way to do damage (and they were), then that was a problem. Fortunately, if your idea of spellcasting involves exploding things, then Necromancers ought to satisfy that nicely (I hope), with them using devices for the support stuff Mages really excel at.

Also, while I don't want mages to be exclusively for experts, I do believe playing them should require awareness and control as a style of play. Perhaps the help files should emphasize the importance of choosing your battles to avoid wasting charges of magic missile early, through the use of say, stealth. I also think the idea of an early buff to boost stealth is a good idea, though the way stealth and mana costs and regen work now, it could end up being either too powerful (letting you pretend to be a Rogue with 0% fail) or useless (oh good, burn a turn to get +1 stealth for a little while, that may even pay for itself in the amount of time it would cost). Perhaps some new way of avoiding monsters (or an old one - teleportation or sleep monster or such)?

I like that idea. A wand of magic missile as starting kit and a scroll of recharge, but then also recharge scrolls should be available in town as "basic stock". That would be a way that is possible.

But priority in my eyes should have first to split spell acquirement into single spells. After that it is much easier to adjust single spells or the learning rate. As long as you can only modify the set of spells in a few books it is much harder to revamp a class or fine tune spell power / costs etc.

A last thing: a games purpose is to entertain the players. Please keep all in mind that if a class is no fun to play the player will stop playing it. Different people find different playing styles fun. A good class allows a wide variety of people to have fun with it.

[Tibarius]

Thanks for this high-level overview, Nick. Thematically these sound plausible to me; the real question is how they'll shake out mechanically. In particular, there's some question as to how easy each class will be to play. Like, if you asked me to rank the overall difficulty of the game, from start to finish, for each class, I guess it'd look something like this (lower is easier):

Warrior: 1.0
Mage: 1.2
Priest: 1.0
Paladin: 0.8
Ranger: N/A, I never play them
Rogue: 0.9

I'm not looking to start a discussion about a "tier list" for the classes, just saying this is about what I feel the spread is. Note that both pure casters are at least as hard as the warrior, due to their poor HP and physical stats and unusually difficult early-, and for mages, mid-game. This is despite the caster classes having a very broad selection of spells. If we both expect to keep a similar spread of relative difficulties (do we?), while also giving the casters more limited and individualized spell lists, then we'll need to compensate in other ways. For example, we can give the casters better non-casting-related skills, or we can make life harder for the non-caster classes in ways that don't impact casters as strongly.

Put another way, every class needs to have the tools to traverse the game and be able to kill Sauron and Morgoth. I recommend deciding what those tools are for each class at a high level, and then building the spell list with reference to those tools and the class theme. You've started on this, by listing the elements that each realm depends on. I guess I'm looking for the answers to these questions:

* What should a young character be doing to get experience and make it to the mid-game?
* What should a mid-game character be doing to get to the late game?
* How do they kill Sauron and Morgoth?

I don't understand the number sections (i miss the min max values here) but i do FULLY AGREE to your three questions!

And here are my answers for the mage class:
1. Sneak around, carefully choosing combat because of weak HPs and limited mana
2. mid game mages collect resistances because they still should avoid hand-to-hand combat and thus require no high armor class but basically just speed and resistances and get int/con to a decent level (not necessarily 18/200)
3. end game morgoth should be phase door, mana storm (or similar) attack spell - the current way Morgoth acts is in my eyes no good way in terms of game mechanics, but currently i have no good idea except that Morgoth could loose / reduce summons and have some kind of ranged attack instead

[Tibarius]

If you carefully read my previous post, I think you'll find I answered all your questions multiple times

I did but i agree to Sky that whatever you wanted to communicate was not received completely by me at last. So instead to point out the weakness in communication it is better to make sure we understand your point(s)!

I think the stairs / traps / doors detection should be an early level spell, but not the level 1 spell for mages. I see either magic missile (or any other attack) spell as the first spell or kit=wand of magic missile, then recharge should be the level 1 spell (and it would require a higher success rate).

Hmm recharge at level 1 is maybe a problem because of mana cost, level 1 spells basically may only cost 1 mana.

Edit: From a game mechanics point of view it is better to have spells of the same game-stage in the same book. So the current setup with book #1 = beginner spells is in my eyes preferable over the setup to split spells over more then one book if they are intended for the same character evolution state.

[Tibarius]

]with Wisdom meaning the ability to harmonise with the creation order and Intelligence the ability to create something distinct

\ WIS
 \
  \
   \
INT \

What does that mean with wis and int in game terms? I have not the slightess clue what that means in game terms.

[Tibarius]

          Holy          
           |            
Arcane------------Nature
           |            
         Death

Now details:

Arcane magic I tend to think of as technology. It will have spells of detection, teleportation, dungeon modification, and mental control over objects, and will use the elements of acid, fire, electricity and cold, or directly use mana to wound or create explosive effects. Its pure spellcasting class is the Mage, who will be an exceptional device user but poor at fighting.

I think acid, fire, electricity and cold are NATURE effects and have basically nothing to do with arcane magic.

Furthermore i do think with fine tuning like adjusting spell level or mana cost we do the 2nd step before the 1st step.

1st step is to make sure which spells in a type / school exist (here we need input if it may only contain existing spells or if we add new spells Nick!).

Here are the spells from the old mage class with my understand of their type:

book#1 beginners magic
magic missile - arcane
detect monsters - nature
phase door - arcane (could be renamed into blink)
light area - arcane
detect objects - arcane
cure light wounds - holy
find tr/do/stairs - arcane
stinking cloud - nature

book#2 conjuring and tricks
Confuse Monster - arcane
Lightning Bolt - nature
Trap/Door Dest - arcane
Cure Poison - nature
Sleep Monster - arcane
Teleport Self - arcane
Spear of Light - holy
*Frost Bolt - nature
Wonder - holy

book#3 incantations and illusions
Satisfy Hunger - nature
Lesser Recharging - arcane
Stone to Mud - arcane or nature
*Fire Bolt - nature
Polymorph Other - arcane
Identify - arcane
Reveal Monsters - nature
*Acid Bolt - nature
Slow Monster - arcane

book#4 sorcery
Frost Ball - nature
Teleport Other - arcane
Haste Self - arcane
Mass Sleep - arcane
Fire Ball - nature
Detect Treasure - arcane

book#5 resistances
Resist Cold - nature
Resist Fire - nature
Resist Poison - nature
Resistance - nature
Shield - holy

book#6 raals
Shock Wave - nature
Explosion - nature
Cloudkill - nature
Acid Ball - nature
Ice Storm - nature
Meteor Swarm - nature ?
Rift - arcane

book#7 escapes
Door Creation - arcane
Stair Creation - arcane
Teleport Level - arcane
Word of Recall - arcane
Rune of Protec - holy

book#8 transformation
Heroism - holy
Berserker - holy
Enchant Armor - arcane / holy
Enchant Weapon - arcane / holy (if you think of it as blessed)
Greater Recharging - arcane
Elemental Brand - nature

book#9 power
Earthquake - nature
Bedlam - arcane
*Rend Soul - death
Banishment - arcane
Word of Destr - death
Mass Banishment - arcane
Chaos Strike - death
Mana Storm - arcane

So the next steps would naturally be:
1. Nick declares if this typing is his understanding as well.
2. Is this list exclusive or may we suggest new spells for the four types.
3. Agree on list of spells.
4. Setup level, mana cost, damage, range of spell (here we could add diversity with spell range not always be 20)

[Tibarius]

ideas for spells which currently not exist

arcane spells:
1. mana shield - mid game spell - damage is absorbed 1/2 by HP and 1/2 by mana
2. light armor / weapon - early game spell - add +1 light to an object
3. charm - mid / late game spell - monster is charmed and fights for mage and treats other monsters as enemies
4. invisibility - early game spell - stealth +2/+4/+6/+8/+10 till level 10/20/30/40/50
5. alarm - mid game spell - mage senses if a monster moves over the space with the alarm spell
6. create wand - early / mid game spell - creates a wand of mana / bolt / magic missile / missile storm, spell and spell damage is dependant on int and character level
7. arcane link - mid game spell - max mana x2/x3/x4/x5 with CL/10 for a specific duration could reduce dependancy on consumeables
8. the existing magic missile is renamed into mana bolt (straight direction)
9. magic missle - mid game spell - the missile flies magically curves until it reaches its target (round corner, wave lines, but not trough other monsters or walls)
10. missile storm - mid / end game spell - fires CL/10 magic missiles in a row
11. focus - early / mid game spell - temporary +4 int

[Tibarius]

early game as mage (old class)

Just to mention it - i played the old mage class almost the whole day now. I consider myself expert playing this game. I know pretty much everything that one can know about it, i won versus Morgoth (with different classes).

I died about twenty times now with new chars (mages). And the two most killing situations were:
1. killed by an invisible monster once i leave the stairs
2. killed by anything once the mana is out and i am not close to stairs

So there is no need to increase difficulty level for mages Nick. The game should stay playble even for new players.

[Philip]

Perhaps you would die less often if you relied more on devices to do damage? More mana would also make running away from monsters you can't handle easier.

I feel like a lot of the ideas you propose are more variant territory, notably with spell acquisition and your new spells, both of which diverge significantly from current mechanics (some of them are also a bit overpowered).

[Nick]

I think acid, fire, electricity and cold are NATURE effects and have basically nothing to do with arcane magic.

I'm thinking of electricity, fire and cold as artificially produced effects. You might be right about acid. I think all of them can be argued both ways.

Here are the spells from the old mage class with my understand of their type:

OK, I'll remove the ones I agree with and add comments where I disagree (and I'll leave the base elements aside too)

detect monsters - nature

I think this is arcane (and probably should include detecting invisible monsters at level 15-20). Detect Living will be the nature spell. Think of this as detecting disruption in the air of the dungeon, or something like that

light area - arcane

Anything to do with light is holy

Confuse Monster - arcane

Charming of creatures is nature

Trap/Door Dest - arcane

Interesting point, and we don't have one of those. Doors, yes, arcane; traps, maybe it depends on the type of trap, but probably arcane as well, actually. Note that in 4.1 traps are actually disabled temporarily.

Sleep Monster - arcane

Nature

Wonder - holy

Interesting - I had called it arcane, but maybe you're right

Stone to Mud - arcane or nature

Yes, I said nature, but you could argue arcane

Polymorph Other - arcane

Creature manipulation I have as nature; you could possibly argue death (messing with spirits and bodies)

Reveal Monsters - nature

Same applies here as to Detect Monsters

Slow Monster - arcane

Nature

Haste Self - arcane

I have this as nature - direct effect on the player

Mass Sleep - arcane

Nature

Resist Cold - nature
Resist Fire - nature
Resistance - nature

You're probably right here, although I had given them to arcane.

Shield - holy

Good point - this is probably right

Shock Wave - nature
Explosion - nature

These feel arcane to me

Meteor Swarm - nature ?

That was my feeling too

Rift - arcane

I've gone with gravity as a nature element

Word of Recall - arcane

Yes, or holy? I don't have strong feelings

Rune of Protec - holy

Yes, that's probably correct

Berserker - holy

I'd probably call this death

Enchant Armor - arcane / holy
Enchant Weapon - arcane / holy (if you think of it as blessed)

Yes, I'd say holy

Bedlam - arcane

Nature

Word of Destr - death

I've given this to both holy and death

Some of your new spells are really interesting, too.

Thanks for all your input on this. I'm inclined to think I need to go away and come back with a new spell list based on these ideas, and we can see where we stand.

[Derakon]

It sounds like, in general, we can characterize the realms something like this:

* Nature: biological and mental buffs and debuffs; effects and elements associated with natural disasters
* Holy: "positive" (non-mixed-blessing) buffs that aren't nature; anti-undead/evil/demonic; light
* Death: mixed-blessing buffs and non-nature debuffs; effects associated with undeath/evil/demons; darkness and nether (and hellfire?)
* Arcane: "technical" effects dealing with raw manipulation of magical energy; detection and knowledge; exotic elements

[Nick]

It sounds like, in general, we can characterize the realms something like this:

* Nature: biological and mental buffs and debuffs; effects and elements associated with natural disasters
* Holy: "positive" (non-mixed-blessing) buffs that aren't nature; anti-undead/evil/demonic; light
* Death: mixed-blessing buffs and non-nature debuffs; effects associated with undeath/evil/demons; darkness and nether (and hellfire?)
* Arcane: "technical" effects dealing with raw manipulation of magical energy; detection and knowledge; exotic elements

Yeah, that looks pretty good. In fact, I'll have a go at actually splitting up all the elements (I largely did it in an earlier post, but let's try and have a definitive list):

• Nature - poison (maybe death gets to use this too), water, ice, gravity, sound, plasma, meteors
• Arcane - missile, mana, arrow, force, nexus
• Holy - light, holy orb
• Death - dark, nether, chaos, disenchantment

This leaves

• acid, electricity, fire, cold - I kind of want to leave all these available to either nature or arcane (and maybe even death, for fire and cold)
• shards - a bit like the previous, they could be used directly by nature or as the outcome of an explosion by arcane
• inertia, time - could really be anything.

How is this looking?

[Derakon]

Looks plausible to me. I don't think we necessarily need to make every element available to some realm; there's nothing wrong with e.g. nobody ever getting access to a plasma or disenchantment spell. I like the idea of the basic elements being more shared, as well, because they're the only elements that have common resistances and semi-common vulnerabilities, so there's marginally more choice to whether you use them or not. No reason to limit those choices to only one realm.

If you do give gravity/inertia spells to any casters, make sure that you don't do what ToME2 did and allow them to apply a large, stacking slow effect to monsters. Getting 10 turns to every 1 of a given monster's turns was fun, but probably not very balanced.