Bugs and issues in 4.1.0

[Nick]

Nightlies page has new builds which fix the persistent levels DL99 problem, and adds number of unknown runes to the rune knowledge menu (in the title).

[Pete Mack]

@Nick--
It hardly matters. I have no doubt at all the original in this case was something weak--like a Paur* glove. Probably put an upper limit on +AC for weapons, or put a limit on the maximum power fraction given to AC. So long as weapon power is determined by a random collection of attributes, you are going to get junk weapons. Things like *thancs are good by *design*.

[Sky]

hmm. maybe i'm wrong, but i think the recall bug is back. i'll keep you updated.

[Derakon]

I'm not sure that this problem can be solved with the current AC system. It's too opaque, which means it's prone to being mis-evaluated by players, leading to situations where the numbers are too low, so nobody uses AC-granting gear, so the numbers get boosted until suddenly everyone realizes they're actually way too high, at which point they have to be lowered for balance, and everyone thinks they're too low, etc.

I don't have a good feel for what the impact of +50 AC is -- not least because the value changes depending on where I am in the game. +50 AC in the early game practically renders you invincible; in the late game it's nowhere near as impactful, and not just because there are more AC-ignoring attacks. If AC could be represented to the player instead as "you take 10% less damage from physical attacks" or "you take 10 fewer points of damage from physical attacks" or "monsters have a 5% harder time hitting you" or etc., then the value of a given piece of armor (or AC-granting weapon) becomes much easier to evaluate. Of course the balance implications would be huge.

I guess I'm saying I wouldn't personally spend a lot of time on tweaking numbers for AC-granting randarts right now. The return on time investment isn't there.

[Sky]

recall seems to work more or less correctly if you always go down, but if you ever go up, it borks out.

for example, i was at DL16, and i went down to DL25, then back up to DL24. i recalled and got the message "do you want to set this level as your recall", i picked no because i wanted to go back to 25, and when i recalled back, i was at 16.





AC looks to me like something that you either touch it and nothing happens, or you touch it and everything breaks.

i noticed on a character i got past Sauron just now with 220 AC that even great wyrms cannot do more than 5-6 dmg per hit.

[Estie]

I'm not sure that this problem can be solved with the current AC system. It's too opaque, which means it's prone to being mis-evaluated by players, leading to situations where the numbers are too low, so nobody uses AC-granting gear, so the numbers get boosted until suddenly everyone realizes they're actually way too high, at which point they have to be lowered for balance, and everyone thinks they're too low, etc.

I don't have a good feel for what the impact of +50 AC is -- not least because the value changes depending on where I am in the game. +50 AC in the early game practically renders you invincible; in the late game it's nowhere near as impactful, and not just because there are more AC-ignoring attacks. If AC could be represented to the player instead as "you take 10% less damage from physical attacks" or "you take 10 fewer points of damage from physical attacks" or "monsters have a 5% harder time hitting you" or etc., then the value of a given piece of armor (or AC-granting weapon) becomes much easier to evaluate. Of course the balance implications would be huge.

I guess I'm saying I wouldn't personally spend a lot of time on tweaking numbers for AC-granting randarts right now. The return on time investment isn't there.

Even if you get the numbers right, weapons with AC are subject to the same problem that defender weapons have: they may be great stat-sticks, but noone who uses melee as their main way of damage dealing wants them unless they also happen to be acceptable in the damage department.

Defenders are overrated, if the pricing is any indication, in that I basically never buy one: either I want it but cant afford it, or I dont want it because I have a better, more often than not cheaper weapon. I suspect that resist base is off, but I am not sure.

[Pete Mack]

The bottom line is that either the weapon should be a stat stick, with CON and (perhaps) INT or WIS+Blessed (and much of the rest is damage), or else a primary weapon where some significant fraction of its not power comes from damage. Messing around in the middle just ends up with something mediocre.
Further, it's questionable to let really powerful weapons be light (or low power weapons be heavy.) Successful Randart weapons have to be more carefully constructed than other randarts, where power really is the sum of its attributes.

[Nick]

recall seems to work more or less correctly if you always go down, but if you ever go up, it borks out.

for example, i was at DL16, and i went down to DL25, then back up to DL24. i recalled and got the message "do you want to set this level as your recall", i picked no because i wanted to go back to 25, and when i recalled back, i was at 16.

OK, I though I could keep recall depth different from max depth, but it leads to too many problems. So back to original behaviour now.

New builds do that and tweak randart armour class. In case anyone mistakenly though I was planning an immediate, complete redo of randarts and/or armour class, I'm not.

[PowerWyrm]

@Nick--
It hardly matters. I have no doubt at all the original in this case was something weak--like a Paur* glove. Probably put an upper limit on +AC for weapons, or put a limit on the maximum power fraction given to AC. So long as weapon power is determined by a random collection of attributes, you are going to get junk weapons. Things like *thancs are good by *design*.

p) the Katana 'Ranor' (3d5) (+11,+18) [+37]
     Dropped by a great storm wyrm at 4750 feet (level 95).

     Cannot be harmed by acid.

     Combat info:
     4.0 blows/round.
     Average damage/round: 199.2.

Power of base artifact was roughly 300. For the same power, you can get this:

the Katana 'Aglarang' (6d5) (+10,+10) <+5, +1>
     ...
     
     +5 dexterity.
     +5 speed.
     +1 attack speed.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains dexterity.

[PowerWyrm]

OK, I though I could keep recall depth different from max depth, but it leads to too many problems. So back to original behaviour now.

An easy way to fix this is to use the way MAngband/PWMAngband handles recall depth: through inscriptions. You inscribe your recall scroll/rod/spellbook with @Rxxx where xxx is the depth you want to recall to (@R1500 to recall at 1500ft), and the code picks either that depth or max_depth whatever is the deepest point you've reached.

[PowerWyrm]

What do you think would be the best fix - maybe double the AC increment?

The problem is not the AC increment, it's fine as it is, otherwise you will add even more AC and make the problem worse. The problem comes from the fact that you have only one parameter for supercharged AC and that too many things get it. For regular AC, there are two parameters: MELEE_AC for weapons and GEN_AC for nonweapons. Just add a MELEE_AC_SUPER parameter, use it for weapons instead of GEN_AC_SUPER. Then armor parts will get proper supercharged AC, which is fine for them, and weapons will get less supercharged AC, which will allow to give them more useful stuff than a plain AC boost.

[Sky]

Weapons are not the problem.
Armor is 25-60 +20-40 , anything between 45 and 100.
Helmet 30.
Boots 25.
Gloves 15.
Cloak 20-40
Shield 40-50
A simple shield of preservation is easily 12+36. Thats 150 before armor.

[Nick]

The problem is not the AC increment, it's fine as it is, otherwise you will add even more AC and make the problem worse. The problem comes from the fact that you have only one parameter for supercharged AC and that too many things get it. For regular AC, there are two parameters: MELEE_AC for weapons and GEN_AC for nonweapons. Just add a MELEE_AC_SUPER parameter, use it for weapons instead of GEN_AC_SUPER. Then armor parts will get proper supercharged AC, which is fine for them, and weapons will get less supercharged AC, which will allow to give them more useful stuff than a plain AC boost.

Right away, sir.

[Nick]

OK, new builds up with PowerWyrm's suggested change. New version real soon now.

[Sky]

another funny recall bug.

i stumbled on a insect pit, and !phased but was gonna die very likely, so i used my recall on DL5. an insect showed up intent on killing me so i read my only scroll, which happened to be a DD.

this took me to DL10, and then the recall kicked in.

guess what level i'm recalling to now? yep .. DL5.