Rune-based ID

[Nick]

I think I have suggested this before, but it would be nice, if I have an unidentified equipment that has question marks all over char info and I then get poisoned, the resist poison rune would get overruled from char info. Naturally assuming I don't know the resist poison rune. Would help remembering what I have already tested against the particular equipment.

This is possible, but would require a change in the way known objects are stored - in fact, back to the way it was before the rune-based ID branch

It probably makes too much sense not to do.

Could the tile for the new Identify scroll just be the same as the old Identify scroll? Just recycling the tile. Currently it's a ? when playing with the tiles. And the name should probably be Identify Rune or something instead of Identify.

Thanks for the reminder.

The disappearing tiles when targeting bug is still around. And it's quite annoying.

Yeah, still haven't found that one.

Auto-inscriptions by rune might be the way to go instead now we've got the entry on the knowledge menu - that way you could achieve the "don't ignore by rune" by setting up a "!k" inscription for items with ESP, but it would also be handy for setting items with aggravation to prompt you before wearing, automatically marking useful randarts and elvenkinds with reminders of their properties, and so on.

This sounds like a good idea.

Incidentally, the added entry to the knowledge screen now means you now have to scroll the menu to see the last entry, and the menu entry stays greyed out even after having learned some runes (though you can still select it fine). Actually, it seems that's stayed greyed but "artifact knowledge" has turned white despite still being non-selectable and empty, so I'm guessing there's a numbering error somewhere.

Found that right after posting...

I would probably reintroduce an Identify/Perception spell at least for the major spellcasters -Mage and Priest. Possibly increasing the mana cost and level of the spell. Because these classes have a large inventory allotment to books, they cannot carry around as many items as the other classes just waiting for an opportunity to learn a rune. All the study that is assumedly required to embark on a career as a mage or priest surely would include a study of runes.

This and the question of whether we need a "learn a random rune" scroll I want to leave until we have a bit more of a feel for how the overall system works. Remember that I have evil plans to massively reduce the number of books and spells in the 4.2 overhaul of classes, so I'm looking to lose rather than gain spells.

Weapons in artifact spoiler lack (to_hit, to_dam) and armour lack (ac_bonus)

Thanks.

I also hope autoinscribe is possible on flavors now? I am thinking of amulets of devotion and the like, where the type is obvious, even if you don't know all the runes.

That's a good idea too.

Thanks everyone for the immediate and voluminous feedback

[debo]

...why is a potion of Augmentation more than 5x the cost of a single-stat potion when it's less than 5x the value of same?

That's the price of convenience.

[Derakon]

I like this idea.

BTW, I have not seen anything like this before. I wish I had the money...

...why is a potion of Augmentation more than 5x the cost of a single-stat potion when it's less than 5x the value of same?

[spara]

...There is no telling how many of them are magical or which agreeing patterns are matching magic machinations and which ones pure coincidence...

I like this idea.

BTW, I have not seen anything like this before. I wish I had the money...

[HermannD]

Regarding the “Those have the same runes” and “This has n runes” suggestions: I loathe any kind of inventory minigame and am in favour of nearly anything reducing that. (Yeah, unlimited inventory would be kinda boring, but any finite inv. is to small for a hoarder like me.) But theses gave me ideas about the explanation, should we decide against those: All the magical objects have runes scribbled all over them. There is no telling how many of them are magical or which agreeing patterns are matching magic machinations and which ones pure coincidence. I did not (yet) get around to play this feature branch, but I like this explanation. It feels quite immersive and mysterious. I might be the only one, though.

Also, my headcanon about cancelled potions still id'ing is that the potion was fully quaffed, but spewn back into the flask upon identification. (I briefly considered sniffing it being sufficient but that idea was rejected for being insufficiently gross.)

Also, I'm looking forward to finding the free time to give this version a go. Sounds like a lot of fun, from reading this thread. Keep up the good work, everybody.

[Nomad]

I also hope autoinscribe is possible on flavors now? I am thinking of amulets of devotion and the like, where the type is obvious, even if you don't know all the runes.

Doesn't look like you can auto-inscribe unknown flavours, unfortunately, even {tried} ones.

[Pete Mack]

I don't really care if the runes have names --it'd be nice, but it's not critical. I do want to know how many runes there are, as it's a good proxy for weapon power. It's the easiest way to distinguish a slay weapon or a single -resist armor from others. I also hope autoinscribe is possible on flavors now? I am thinking of amulets of devotion and the like, where the type is obvious, even if you don't know all the runes.

[Nomad]

Incidentally, the added entry to the knowledge screen now means you now have to scroll the menu to see the last entry, and the menu entry stays greyed out even after having learned some runes (though you can still select it fine). Actually, it seems that's stayed greyed but "artifact knowledge" has turned white despite still being non-selectable and empty, so I'm guessing there's a numbering error somewhere.

Addendum to this bug report: the shop contents knowledge is also all shifted by one - menu items up to traps work correctly, and so do the last two, hall of fame and character history, but choosing "Display contents of general store" gets you the next shop down, the armourer, instead; choosing armourer gets the weaponsmith, and so on down the line to "home", which causes a crash. (Seem to recall the same thing happening before when the separate trap knowledge section was added to the menu.)

[Nomad]

If @ can recognize a known rune on any item after learning the rune, then should @ also be able to recognize (but not know the meaning of) an unknown rune if @ sees it on multiple items? Or should runes only be differentiated from each other after they have been identified?

V4 used to have randomly generated names like scroll names for the unknown runes, so you could see on the inspect screen how many unknown runes there were, and compare two items to see if, say, they both had the rune 'Tyr' meaning you could safely ditch one, or one had 'Tyr' and the other had 'Ogg' so you knew they were two different things. (The rune knowledge page on the knowledge menu also functioned like object knowledge, where you could see a list of all the unknown 'flavours' still to be discovered.)

I can see arguments for both systems - on the one hand, naming and listing the runes makes inventory management easier, but on the other not knowing that information preserves a bit of mystery and excitement where you've got no way to tell at first if that Robe {??} you picked up is just something basic like Resist Fire or a really lucky find of a Robe of Permanence.

[Carnivean]

Seems a reasonable line of thinking, but would it be better on the inspect screen than the display line?

[fruviad]

If @ can recognize a known rune on any item after learning the rune, then should @ also be able to recognize (but not know the meaning of) an unknown rune if @ sees it on multiple items? Or should runes only be differentiated from each other after they have been identified?

For example, you find Elvagil and you do not know the 2 slay runes on it, so the description is:

the Long Sword 'Elvagil' (2d5) (+12,+12) <+2> {??}

Now suppose you find another weapon that has a rune you don't know. You would like to know what the rune means, but it's a weak enough weapon that you're not interested in keeping it, otherwise, because it's inferior to Elvagil, which you're already using as your primary weapon.

Currently, both weapons will display as {??}, without any indication that they share the same rune. (None that I've seen, at least.)

But, if the rune on this other weapon also is "Slay Orc", then should you be able to look at the two weapons and say "Hmmm...I have this fairly lame sword with this unknown rune that I'll call 'D' but I also see/feel the 'D' rune on Elvagil. Given this, I don't know what 'D' does, but I know that there's no point in keeping this lame weapon around in the hopes of ID'ing 'D', because I already have Elvagil to get the ID for that rune."

This might mean enumerating each rune when finding the item, rather than the more vague {??} which means "one or more runes". I wonder if this would give away too much about a new item?

Perhaps a rune would only be enumerated separately from {??} when you've encountered that rune on multiple items? {??} would mean "one or more runes you don't know and have never seen elsewhere", and wouldn't be displayed for an item if you have seen all of its runes on other items.

Thus, if I do not know "Slay Troll" or "Slay Orc", and I haven't seen those runes on any other weapons, then Elvagil would display as:

the Long Sword 'Elvagil' (2d5) (12,+12) <+2> {??}

If I find another weapon that has "Slay Orc", but I still do not identify the "Slay Orc" rune, then Elvagil will display as:

the Long Sword 'Elvagil' (2d5) (12,+12) <+2> {D} {??}

If I then find a weapon with "Slay Troll" and I do not yet know that rune, it would be assigned another label (e.g. "F"), and the Elvagil display would change to:

the Long Sword 'Elvagil' (2d5) (12,+12) <+2> {D} {F}

I haven't tested this in today's release, but I repro'd the current behavior with yesterday's release using Narthanc and a flask of oil.

Thoughts?

Thanks to everyone who's been working on this, whether developers or otherwise. I've been enjoying the new ID scheme.

[Carnivean]

Well that's disappointing. I thought you'd have a nice manifesto ready. After all, you usually do.

[Derakon]

Where's Derakon?

Derakon mostly reserves his efforts for things he feels he can readily dive in and do without having to learn a great deal about how the codebase works. The squelch system is not one of those things. Sorry guys.

[Thraalbee]

Artifact Spoiler files without weapon and armour bonus

Weapons in artifact spoiler lack (to_hit, to_dam) and armour lack (ac_bonus)

[spara]

The price of an Identify Scroll from the black market feels a bit cheapo. Only 45 AU. Just bought 10 scrolls . Actually BM has become my main source for ID as they seem to be quite rare in the dungeon. Maybe the RNG favors me, but they seem a bit too common at the BM. On the other hand they seem a bit too rare in the dungeon.