Rune-based ID

[spara]

There is some middle ground here. The old system was that effects were noticed when they were noticeable - or because they were too annoying or impossible to notice. A number of effects are made noticeable in a fake way - Trap Creation is a good example.

Just one step back and thats it . The only change I'm looking here is that monster affecting effects would require an actual monster to be revealed. For monster affecting wands and rods that would mean targeting a monster and for staves and scrolls just a monster around. And to be clear, unaffected result would also reveal the effect.

[Nick]

OK, new builds up for Windows and OS X.

The multiple @ problem is fixed, thanks to calris, and there are also some improvements to the overhead map subwindow (I hope).

So first impressions are this is a worthwhile branch to spend time exploring and refining. Its a major change to the gameplay but I think its one that I for one like.

Excellent, thanks for the feedback.

[tprice]

I got sidetracked by life and other games over the holidays and just stuck my head back in the Angband forums on Thursday to see how things were going. This thread and feature branch attracted my attention since I've been seeing the debate over RuneID for ages as it keeps popping up. I'm glad that the Great Code Cleanup let you all finally implement it so we can test the theories that kept getting batted around. Looks like its letting Nick implement change ideas quickly as well from what i read in thread. I want to thank everyone who helped bring 4.0 out, i had looked at Angband code a few years ago and the spaghetti code scared me off, i really should look at it after the refactoring and see if i can understand it better and help out where i can besides just bug finding :-)

I downloaded the latest windows client for this branch on Friday (though i see Nick just updated a couple hours ago but there is a screen refresh bug) and spent last night and this evening dieing a lot at shallow levels (Scroll ID by use kept finding Deep Decent and taking a character on his first dive down from ~DL5 to ~DL10 without any magic weapons nor many HP. lost at least 6 characters that way). I finally got a ranger who found a *slay Undead* whip on ~DL3 and then a Resist Poison Ring on ~DL5 who has been able to make the transition to the double digit depths successfully (then the gear REALLY started dropping, like elvenkind boots with +7 speed and artifact weapons and gloves).

Even at shallow depths with the quickly dead characters I really like the ID on Walkover for basic weapon/armor stats once you get those 3 runes. It eliminates the need to pickup every drop to Psuedo ID it and then figure out if it is better than the current basic gear. It made those repeated deaths a little easier to deal with since I wasn't grumping at the "But I don't have the ID Spell/staff/Rod yet" period of character growth.

Now that I'm lasting a while at a depth where Rune's really show up on gear I'm finding the new ID mini game a lot of fun. No need to limit a trip based on how many ID scrolls or IDStave Charges I could buy (Quiver Contents became my new limit). But those freed up backpack slots are taking up with ??? items that i keep swapping out in minor fights to figure out what they are. Makes it a bit of a puzzle but not TOOO annoying of one so far.

So first impressions are this is a worthwhile branch to spend time exploring and refining. Its a major change to the gameplay but I think its one that I for one like.

[Nick]

Just in general play. It happens whenever the screen re-centres because @ is about to run off the edge. (Probably far more noticeable because I'm playing with the window at the minimum size.)

ETA: only seems to occur with running, the screen refreshes correctly if I'm walking.

OK, I can confirm that. I'll have a look.

[Nomad]

Is this from you manually refreshing, or just what happens in general play?

Just in general play. It happens whenever the screen re-centres because @ is about to run off the edge. (Probably far more noticeable because I'm playing with the window at the minimum size.)

ETA: only seems to occur with running, the screen refreshes correctly if I'm walking.

[Nick]

Something's now majorly buggy with screen-refreshing while you're exploring the dungeon - instead of the previous image being erased it's just getting overlaid with the new one, so you end up with multiple copies of @ all over the place.

Is this from you manually refreshing, or just what happens in general play?

[Nomad]

Something's now majorly buggy with screen-refreshing while you're exploring the dungeon - instead of the previous image being erased it's just getting overlaid with the new one, so you end up with multiple copies of @ all over the place.

[Nick]

There are new builds up for Windows and OS X.

The changes are:

• OS X port now uses Command-n to raise term window n (thanks to molybdenum).
• Several improvements to object and monster lists, and other code improvements, also by molybdenum.
• Identify scrolls are more common (they appear in stacks) and more expensive.
• The player gets a message when an item they are carrying or standing on is IDed as a new ego or jewellery type.
• Code improvements to how intrinsic properties of diggers, lights and oil are handled.
• Egos and jewellery are fully named in shops, although examining only reveals properties the player already knows. On buying an object, the player learns all the runes on it.
• Fixed Nomad's selling/autoinscribing bug.
• There is now a birth option for knowing all runes (and hence getting ID on walkover for wearables (with the exception of jewellery with effects, which still need to be tested)). I lied, it only took 4 lines of code.

[Nick]

Yep, but given that I'm quite the noob, I might not be the best suited. I would need pointers to where I could find a complete list of all effects, too.

Well, here is the list of effects; looking at the effect: lines in object.txt will show you which objects have which effects.

An alternative would be to add a flag for auto-ID to object kinds, which would allow, say, a scroll of Detect Invisible to auto-ID but require noticing to ID the staff.

[HermannD]

So what we could do is establish which effects should need testing for, and which shouldn't, and set them all individually. Anyone want to do that?

Yep, but given that I'm quite the noob, I might not be the best suited. I would need pointers to where I could find a complete list of all effects, too.

[Nick]

I'm having mixed feelings about instant ID by use on potions, scrolls, wands etc.

Earlier you could id by testing, id at store and id by spell. ID by testing only worked, if you could observe the effect. I found tesing to be both exciting and frustrating, so I usually sold the potions/scrolls found from the first level to ID the basic stuff and later used ID spell to not waste a potentially good effect. In panic situations I could use an unIDd potion/scroll/wand/whatever in hope of a good effect.

Now ID by spell is not possible and testing always works. It feels that something good has been lost. It's hard to describe the feeling, but somehow by streamlining and limiting ID options the game feels more simplistic.

I think that the earlier ID by use functionality that allowed failure felt more immersive and less gamey.

Anyone else feeling like that?

There is some middle ground here. The old system was that effects were noticed when they were noticeable - or because they were too annoying or impossible to notice. A number of effects are made noticeable in a fake way - Trap Creation is a good example.

So what we could do is establish which effects should need testing for, and which shouldn't, and set them all individually. Anyone want to do that?

[Nomad]

I suggest we add a bunch of flavors for potions. And I mean literal flavors, like "Mmm, tastes like lemon!" And that can be the gloss for how the player is able to ID potions that have no observable effect.

That's a neat idea, actually - not necessarily just literal flavours, but giving all the 'silent' consumables some kind of observable physical effects that @ would be able to recognise. There's already the function to add a 'msg' line to entries in object.txt so they display a flavour message on use, though it's only used in a small number of cases ("You hear a low-pitched whistling sound" for scrolls of Trap Creation, "A line of shimmering blue light appears." for wands of Light, etc.). It should be trivial to add a bunch more of these to give all the consumables a vaguely thematic effect on use, e.g.:

"Fiery spices inflame your senses. You identify a potion of Boldness."
"The cool draught soothes your stomach. You identify a potion of Neutralize Poison."
"The stones around you glow briefly. You identify a scroll of Trap/Door Destruction."

[HermannD]

I suggest we add a bunch of flavors for potions. And I mean literal flavors, like "Mmm, tastes like lemon!" And that can be the gloss for how the player is able to ID potions that have no observable effect.

I like that. More flavourtext is usually neat. (= It might also make sense to add something similar for other stuff:

You aim the wand at it.
Its eyes close but immediately reopen. (It resists the effect.)
You have one wand of Monstrous Sleep.

However, I don't like how acid is currently handled:

It spits acid at you.
Your cloak is damaged.
Your “Cloak [1]” became a “Cloak [1] {??}”.

What might those “{??}” mean? Acid should probably be rolled into the intrinsics or something. It's not really interesting from an ID-minigame perspective and breaks immersion if one, as I do, imagines actual runes or another magical explanation for the ID stuff.

Other than that and the cheap ?ID in the BM, I like the change a lot, now that I managed to play an hour.

[Derakon]

I suggest we add a bunch of flavors for potions. And I mean literal flavors, like "Mmm, tastes like lemon!" And that can be the gloss for how the player is able to ID potions that have no observable effect.

[spara]

You're right Nomad, earlier it was a pain to to test for example neutralize poison potion. And I don't want that back. I think you pinpointed the cause for my uneasiness. It's probably that using a wand to a door and finding it confuses monsters. It would be sensible to require that a monster affecting effect really needs a monster to reveal it's nature. Even though the monster is unaffected. So a wand of sleep monster would reveal itself only when targeted to a monster and even though the monster is unaffected. "The monster is unaffected by your wand of sleep" or something like that.