Rune-based ID

[Carnivean]

In play, with the spell available, at least my test forced-descent @'s have been able to learn all the runes by the time of the final battles. Without the availability of the spell, I found this much harder to accomplish.

The point of Rune-ID is to eliminate IDing anything in the end game, as that's annoying. Therefore the end game should be given an approximate starting point, say dlvl 60 or clvl 30, and a method to eliminate the ID mini-game should be given. For mages and priests this should definitely be a spell, as it fits the theme of their character.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

The ID spell is possibly only needed by mages, or maybe even not at all - in any case, it needs thought...

Personally, I was very glad you brought this back. I think it should stay, with perhaps the mana cost and spell level tweaked. I would also leave it for the other spell casters.

Reasons for my feeling this way: 1. It returns to mages one of the advantages among their many disadvantages. 2. In play, with the spell available, at least my test forced-descent @'s have been able to learn all the runes by the time of the final battles. Without the availability of the spell, I found this much harder to accomplish. 3. if my @'s can't get the runes identified in the normal course by the time of the final fights, then the new id system is more burdensome to me than the old. With the spell available for the magic/prayer casters, then the the id game remains fun in the beginning and by the time it isn't fun, everything is identified.

[Nick]

This is mainly a reminder for me of the outstanding issues on this branch, which IIRC are:

1. Artifacts being generated more than once
2. Insufficient messages on learning stuff
3. Autoinscription not happening at all the right times (and ignore should be checked too)
4. The ID spell is possibly only needed by mages, or maybe even not at all - in any case, it needs thought

I've filed the tweaking of mushroom effect times as a task for 4.1, separate from this branch.

Please do add more issues to this thread if they arise, but I'm probably going to leave this branch untouched for a while and do other things. There will also need to be a discussion at some stage about whether this is really what we want to do

[StMicah]

OK, thanks, I didn't know that. Just to confirm - you saw the name of the artifact the first time, and then it got generated again later?

Yep: same name and properties. They don't show up in the character history of second time, but I'm pretty sure that both the phial and this sling showed up in GVs after I had found them and discarded/ignored them earlier.

[spara]

My rogue just hit spell-id level and was very glad for it, having multiple items in the house which required iding...

I think that for the ID mini game the house should not get full of unIDd objects. A few is good the excitement, but stacks of them sounds like no fun. Maybe the probability for ID scrolls appearing should be higher?

[Estie]

So my general feeling here is that ID spells probably should be more restricted or even removed - maybe just have them as a thematic thing for mages and no-one else?

My rogue just hit spell-id level and was very glad for it, having multiple items in the house which required iding. For the most part the missing runes were high resists, some of which I guessed but didnt bother to carry the item around for (unlikely) test opportunities. I dont think I would test more with a warrior either - just wait a bit longer for more id scrolls.

Delaying the spell more would still keep it usefull, maybe up to another 5 levels or so. Giving it to the mage only also wouldnt be horrible, though I dont really see much value in having the house full of objects waiting for id scrolls. Either way, it works fine; its not so much that rune-id creates the awesome new id minigame, its more that it is a working system and the lategame id orgies are history. That, in my eyes, is its main advantage.

[Nick]

Don't know if this has been reported...but on the latest rune-id build playing randarts, the same artifact has generated a number of times. I'm playing a ranger and have noticed the same sling (it has ESP and Poison resist) once around dlvl 40 when I played with it equipped for a while and just know on dlvl 95 in a GV. This also happened (I think) with the phial.

OK, thanks, I didn't know that. Just to confirm - you saw the name of the artifact the first time, and then it got generated again later?

[StMicah]

Don't know if this has been reported...but on the latest rune-id build playing randarts, the same artifact has generated a number of times. I'm playing a ranger and have noticed the same sling (it has ESP and Poison resist) once around dlvl 40 when I played with it equipped for a while and just know on dlvl 95 in a GV. This also happened (I think) with the phial.

[Nick]

So my general feeling here is that ID spells probably should be more restricted or even removed - maybe just have them as a thematic thing for mages and no-one else?

One minor bug persists. Autoinscriptions often do not appear when an unknown item is put in the inventory or equipped and the rune or flavor subsequently becomes known. Some other event, such as dropping and picking the item back up is often necessary. Oddly, other actions taken, such as activating the Phial can cause an autoinscription on a different item, such as a wand, to attach. It reminds me of what happens if @ ignores an item while on the doorstep of a shop. The item isn't ignored and dropped until some other action occurs.

Yes, I need to make sure autoinscription and ignoring are both happening at the right time now, given that the necessary knowledge is coming in different places. Also messages about learning flavours, etc are not quite right yet.

[spara]

At least for a ranger the ID spell in a book feels kind of pointless. There are enough id scrolls around at that point. Somehow, now, the spell in a book also feels a bit out of place. If an early ID is a problem for weak casters, there are possibilities:

* Casters could get some known runes to start with and learn more on level up. These could be thematically chosen, so that different casters get different runes at different levels.
* Maybe there could be a town book of runes that all casters can read. You could browse it, but learning would be passive, tied to the caster level and/or int/wis.
* There could be a delayed autoID of runes, when wearing unknown runic objects around. The length it takes to autoID a random rune would be tied to CL/intelligence/wisdom.

[Pete Mack]

Lack of ID isn't the weakness for warrior. It's lack of detection,combined with bad magical devices, poor stealth, and bad saving throw. Together, those can easily overwhelm a character so he can't escape, until he either gets detection or ESP. Trying to activate a staff of teleportation with bad device skill while confused is bad news. Just one lesser titan, or a room full of hummerhorns.

[tprice]

I've gotten my Ranger down to DL59 and I'm finding I don't really care about the ID spell you put back into book m3 a few patches ago.

ID by use was fun in the early CLvls. It was fun juggling gear that you don't know what it is at all. ID Scrolls drop occasionally in the early game, giving you a needed hint on a stubborn item.

Here in the mid-game I find ID Scrolls decently often and usually in small stacks, more than enough to ID the few unknown runes i'm finding occasional (and those can be hard to ID by use since they are for obscure effects or the gear swap would cause you to many problems).

ID Spell, eh. might as well turn on AutoID on Walkover. No sense of "what IS that rune?" when you can cast it at will. At least that's how its feeling to me right now.

Still like the RuneID in general though! I like it a lot. I bet its actually an improvement for a pure warrior. hmmm might try one next after my current ranger wins (or dies but finding Bard's Bow on DL45 made the game a lot easier suddenly) to test out that impression. I normally skipped Warriors because of the lack of ID drove me nuts.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

One minor bug persists. Autoinscriptions often do not appear when an unknown item is put in the inventory or equipped and the rune or flavor subsequently becomes known. Some other event, such as dropping and picking the item back up is often necessary. Oddly, other actions taken, such as activating the Phial can cause an autoinscription on a different item, such as a wand, to attach. It reminds me of what happens if @ ignores an item while on the doorstep of a shop. The item isn't ignored and dropped until some other action occurs.

[spara]

Great job. After playing a few hours with the latest version, the runeID mechanic feels very good and natural.

A couple of minor things that caught my eye.

1. Sometimes when IDing runes, the messages come in a funny order. Something like:

...
You have learned the rune enchant to hit.
You have learned the rune enchant to damage.
The arrow {??} hits the target
...

Maybe the learning messages should come later or the arrow should have it's properties shown?

2. Now that testing wands, staff and rods is the way to ID them, I'm missing notification messages when identifying. Some have them from the previous version and some don't. Something like "You have a staff of Sleep Monsters (9)." would be nice when zapping an unknown magical device.

Also, is IDing wands now too safe, like Nomad pointed earlier? Just zap them in an empty room and no harm can happen. Wands of clone monster, haste monster etc. have sort of lost their point.

3. That pesky disappearing tiles problem is still annoying. As Nomad already wrote, it's connected to the big tiles and non-Shockbolt tiles. For example, it happens with 4x2 magnifier and Gervais tiles.

Anyway, big thanks for the constant development. I'm enjoying the game tremendously .

[Nomad]

I think the duration for Mushrooms of Terror could probably stand to be cut down a bit as well. It's not as frustrating as Emergency, but does seem to last a bit unfairly long considering you often encounter them on very early levels (plus most of the positive mushroom effects wear off in about a quarter of the time).

Actually, I could see the argument for giving all mushroom effects the same base duration of 50 - it would make the positive ones more worthwhile and the negative ones less risky to ID by use. Currently the durations seem to be:

Clear Mind: 18-72
Second Sight: 34-105
Stoneskin/Terror: 80-120
Sprinting: 100
Emergency: 250-350 (hallucination), 20-40 (resists)

How about standardising those to:

Terror/Emergency(all effects): 50
Clear Mind/Second Sight/Stoneskin: 50-100
Sprinting: 100