Here's how I start gnome mages

[Timo Pietilä]

18/150 internal is a bit high

Ooops. 18/100.

[Timo Pietilä]

And the removal of the Charisma stat has made nexus attacks much more dangerous. Since Chr potions started to appear earlier than other potions, and were much cheaper to buy in the black market, odds were high that a scramble was in your favour.

For that reason I sometimes hope that we would not have removed it. You sometimes hit a jackpot and got your main stat swapped with 18/100 CHR before stat-gain.

[Derakon]

I vote for keeping the nexus stat scramble effect as it is. Yes, if it happens and @ doesn't have rNexus it can be difficult to overcome (until stats are maxed), but difficult is not impossible. Plus it is a very rare effect versus the other nexus effects. It isn't a gotcha instadeath the way potions of death were. I guess I just don't like the tendency to water down the dangers.

Thesis: the game should be fun to play. Consequence: the game should not put itself into a state that is not fun to play. Observation: very few people enjoy playing when their primary stat has been permanently nuked into oblivion.

So...conclusion: if your primary stat falls below 10, then you automatically die?

A "minor" impact like having your primary stat lowered by 3-6 points is manageable, but I suspect that fewer than 1 in 1000 players enjoy, say, playing a mage who is suddenly an incredibly wise drooling idiot. Especially when they realize that their only means of recovery are either a) drinking potions for ages to get back to where they were, or b) hoping for an incredibly lucky stat swap. Hence why I suggested the +3/-3 effect: it's big enough to be really noticeable, but it shouldn't be game-ruining.

[brbrbr]

A "minor" impact like having your primary stat lowered by 3-6 points is manageable, but I suspect that fewer than 1 in 1000 players enjoy

Hound swapped my stats once. It was a bugger. Then the same hound swapped it back!! That was hilarious and very enjoying.

How about dancing around Nexus hound until it gets your stats scrambled the way you like it???

I vote for keeping it. Give a bit of variety and unpredictability into the game.

[bio_hazard]

I don't see why we couldn't keep the swap as is, but on each level gain a 50% chance to revert.

[Derakon]

I don't see why we couldn't keep the swap as is, but on each level gain a 50% chance to revert.

It requires maintaining more state about the game, and could be complicated. What happens if you gain stats after the swap? What about if you hit your maximum in that stat? Or your minimum?

Another option would be for the nexus swap-stat effect to be strictly time-limited, but completely jumble your stats. That is, for the next N turns each stat acts as if it were a different stat.

[fph]

Another option would be for the nexus swap-stat effect to be strictly time-limited, but completely jumble your stats. That is, for the next N turns each stat acts as if it were a different stat.

This looks like a great idea! It would make nexus hounds a mild annoyance alone, but potentially deadly in vaults or crowded levels.

[Bogatyr]

I would rather remove raise one lower another -potions so that your stats increase in about steady rate and you don't have situation where one stat is at internal 3 and another at internal 18/150.

I wouldn't like this. Being able to focus on one stat adds more options and strategies to the game.

[Egavactip]

You could have mushrooms of vigor and/or potions of augmentation "fix" stat swaps. Perhaps also potions of *healing* and life.

[Bogatyr]

You could have mushrooms of vigor and/or potions of augmentation "fix" stat swaps. Perhaps also potions of *healing* and life.

The problem is what if you *like* the result of the swap, forget about it, come to depend on it, end up not maxing other stats by the final battle, and drink a potion of life in battle against Morgoth, thus breaking your stats instead of "fixing" it? Far fetched, but stranger things have happened.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

This looks like a great idea! It would make nexus hounds a mild annoyance alone, but potentially deadly in vaults or crowded levels.

I guess that I have trouble fathoming how making dangerous monsters into mild annoyances helps the game. Will the tendency deepen? I dread the day @ plunges to DL 100 and finds a milquetoast Morgoth.

[Derakon]

I guess that I have trouble fathoming how making dangerous monsters into mild annoyances helps the game. Will the tendency deepen? I dread the day @ plunges to DL 100 and finds a milquetoast Morgoth.

For every way in which the game is made easier by elimination of a dumb mechanic, it can be made harder by introduction of an interesting one. People have been bemoaning the marshmallow-ification of Angband for decades now.

[bio_hazard]

The problem is what if you *like* the result of the swap, forget about it, come to depend on it, end up not maxing other stats by the final battle, and drink a potion of life in battle against Morgoth, thus breaking your stats instead of "fixing" it? Far fetched, but stranger things have happened.

If you make it to DL 99 without having maxed stats across the board, then you're probably OK with that sort of challenge.

[Nick]

I don't see why we couldn't keep the swap as is, but on each level gain a 50% chance to revert.

My favoured scheme is this, with 100% chance - and no effect on the swap from stat potions or Mushrooms of Vigor. So the effect is always curable - unless you are level 50, in which case it's only curable by maxing stats. As Derakon says, more game state needs to be recorded, but not much.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Thesis: the game should be fun to play. Consequence: the game should not put itself into a state that is not fun to play. Observation: very few people enjoy playing when their primary stat has been permanently nuked into oblivion.

So...conclusion: if your primary stat falls below 10, then you automatically die?

A "minor" impact like having your primary stat lowered by 3-6 points is manageable, but I suspect that fewer than 1 in 1000 players enjoy, say, playing a mage who is suddenly an incredibly wise drooling idiot. Especially when they realize that their only means of recovery are either a) drinking potions for ages to get back to where they were, or b) hoping for an incredibly lucky stat swap. Hence why I suggested the +3/-3 effect: it's big enough to be really noticeable, but it shouldn't be game-ruining.

For every way in which the game is made easier by elimination of a dumb mechanic, it can be made harder by introduction of an interesting one. People have been bemoaning the marshmallow-ification of Angband for decades now.

How many logical fallacies, presumptions, and assumptions are in that reasoning?! Your OPINION is that nexus swap is a dumb mechanic, makes the game not fun to play, and that only a very few people disagree with that opinion.

Well, without a survey I'm not sure how you have made so many assumptions and conclusions. While I usually agree with you, Derakon, on this one I am on the other side. I think nexus swap is just fine as it is.