Here's how I start gnome mages

[wobbly]

I found Raal and discovered that most of the spells there are weak.
Rift for 200 damage? Meteor for 150? C'mon guys, my Totila does 250 against evil in flimsy mages hands, why would I use spells?
I also tried wands of annihilation, drain life but again, simple Totila does better.

Does it actually do 250 though? Like if you watch the hit, miss messages are you really hitting much more often then 1 in 2? Perhaps you're dealing more like 125, 150 or 160?

[Estie]

Ok, my Dunedan mage heroically died at dl95.
I was clearing a huge open vault in knight position.
TO, TO, TO, TO - I have teleported, probably, hundreds of monsters.
I went onto autopilot and didn't notice Huan returned from the back.
Ironically, I commented the similar death couple of days ago.

At the far end of the vault Kelek was lying...

I am not upset about the loss. Honestly, I get bored playing mage.
For the last ten levels I just wished it would finish soon. And it did.
Dunadan + careful birth points allocation + some luck made mid game solid.
I was really looking forward for the late game, but it is disappointing.

I found Raal and discovered that most of the spells there are weak.
Rift for 200 damage? Meteor for 150? C'mon guys, my Totila does 250 against evil in flimsy mages hands, why would I use spells?
I also tried wands of annihilation, drain life but again, simple Totila does better.
So Rune of Protection + Melee is how I fought the last Uniques - that is just parody to Priest playstyle! Where is the killing machine which mage ought to be in the end game????

TO, TO, TO, TO, TO.... boring. I really miss my warrior.

In Angband, mage has always been the offensively weakest class. The classes are balanced so that offense + utility = constant, more or less, and mage has the best utility from the red books. In olden days, the spell damage wasnt even on par with 4 attack melee; these days, it is.

The big mage-only spell-line is banishment, to be found in Kelek´s; maybe, if you had managed to get it, youd have experienced some mage glory, though even with manasorm, mage damage is nowhere near stellar.

I think picking Dunadan was a mistake. While bonus stats are the best thing for all other classes, mage is the one exception; you need to pay for those stats with slower xp gain, and while stats enable fighters to kill faster to make up for that, this isnt true for mages. If you ever try another mage, maybe try human.

[Derakon]

Does it actually do 250 though? Like if you watch the hit, miss messages are you really hitting much more often then 1 in 2? Perhaps you're dealing more like 125, 150 or 160?

Yes, it's important to realize that the melee damage numbers when you 'I'nspect a weapon assume that all blows land, and typically mages have around a 60-75% chance to hit their opponents in melee.

Also of course, if you're in melee, then you're getting hit by your opponent. Attack spells and wands don't have that problem. Mages are so squishy that they really need to avoid melee at all costs.

Just be glad you're not playing in the old days -- as mentioned, the attack spells were bloody awful. Not only that, but Raal's Tome was the last dungeon spellbook! As compensation, Tenser's Transformations included the spell Globe of Invulnerability, which did exactly what it said on the tin. So mages basically had to somehow scrape their way to a copy of Tenser's, at which point they were literally invincible and just waded into groups to ineffectually flail at the monsters with their melee weapon.

[Bogatyr]

Yeah, you picked a slow XP race (Dunadan). They're somewhat easier to start, longer to finish. Gnomes have the best magic device skill in the game, making rods and wands truly lethal in their hands with the damage multiplier, and gain levels fairly fast. Human mage is an interesting sort-of-challenge mage, and they level the fastest of all.

To each his own. Warrior for me is boooooooorrrrrriiiiiinnnnggggg.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Yeah, you picked a slow XP race (Dunadan). They're somewhat easier to start, longer to finish. Gnomes have the best magic device skill in the game, making rods and wands truly lethal in their hands with the damage multiplier, and gain levels fairly fast. Human mage is an interesting sort-of-challenge mage, and they level the fastest of all.

To each his own. Warrior for me is boooooooorrrrrriiiiiinnnnggggg.

I say, "Try them all, every race/class combination!" At least for me, whether a combination turned out to be boring was more a matter of the RNG than anything else.

[luneya]

I say, "Try them all, every race/class combination!" At least for me, whether a combination turned out to be boring was more a matter of the RNG than anything else.

I agree. These days I usually pick my race and class by rolling dice. The resulting hobbit warriors can be surprisingly effective

As for my own Dunadan mage, it got stat-swapped by a nexus attack. (I thought they removed that possibility several versions ago. Was it intentionally restored, or is that a bug?) I had enough int-boosting gear not to immediately rage-quit what had previously been a promising character, but died a couple dungeon levels later after underestimating the difficulty of killing some guys with my weakened magic.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

As for my own Dunadan mage, it got stat-swapped by a nexus attack. (I thought they removed that possibility several versions ago. Was it intentionally restored, or is that a bug?) I had enough int-boosting gear not to immediately rage-quit what had previously been a promising character, but died a couple dungeon levels later after underestimating the difficulty of killing some guys with my weakened magic.

Sorry about the loss. It happens though. My worst have been when it's against Sauron and I had to go all the way back to the beginning!

Nexus stat swap is not a bug and, as far as I know, has been around a long time. It just isn't as likely to occur as the other nexus effects. When it does though, it's like suddenly being thrust into an iron-man game. A corollary is when you find an early !Experience and then get stat-drained. It can take a very, very long time to get to stat depth or find a mushroom of vigor. Meanwhile it's quite dangerous.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Here's one of mine that got nexus scrambled at 1500’ - Strength was nerfed to 10 - http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18091

Play had to slow down quite a lot, but @ pulled it off in the end.

[brbrbr]

In Angband, mage has always been the offensively weakest class. The classes are balanced so that offense + utility = constant, more or less, and mage has the best utility from the red books. In olden days, the spell damage wasnt even on par with 4 attack melee; these days, it is.

Ah, that makes sense!
I was expecting much more from mages, but now I understand it.

The big mage-only spell-line is banishment, to be found in Kelek´s; maybe, if you had managed to get it, youd have experienced some mage glory, though even with manasorm, mage damage is nowhere near stellar.

It would be nice to have Banishment in the spellbook. Although if that spellbook is only found on the latest levels of the dangeon.... when the games is almost finished...it makes a very short glory ))

I think picking Dunadan was a mistake. While bonus stats are the best thing for all other classes, mage is the one exception; you need to pay for those stats with slower xp gain, and while stats enable fighters to kill faster to make up for that, this isnt true for mages. If you ever try another mage, maybe try human

Dunadan mage was a very good combo for me. It made midgame solid. I had 10 tries at gnome mage and it was torture. Dunadan get that far in first attempt. I could also dive very fast.
I agree that Dunadan has slow XP is disadvantage, (I hit dl95 at cl39 - too early) but it is not that big, as that deep Portions of Experience are common.
I agree Human would be interesting choice. Quicker and higher cl would also help with damage, as spell damage depends on cl, doesn't it.
I am not sure about HP though... for Human I would need to find 3 more Potions of Constitution on average to get to the same level of health.

At least for me, whether a combination turned out to be boring was more a matter of the RNG than anything else.

Strangely enough, I found RNG very consistent for a given class. I have suspicion there are some RNG "adjustments" in the code for classes.
Common wisdom is that professionals produce consistent results in volatile environment, while amateurs are the opposite

To each his own. Warrior for me is boooooooorrrrrriiiiiinnnnggggg

Oh, Bogatyr, you are so in love with mages!
By the way - "Bogatyr" in Russian means "Warrior"
%-0

[Bogatyr]

Oh, Bogatyr, you are so in love with mages!

Magic is, for me, the entire point of the game.

By the way - "Bogatyr" in Russian means "Warrior"
%-0

I know .

[luneya]

Sorry about the loss. It happens though. My worst have been when it's against Sauron and I had to go all the way back to the beginning!

Nexus stat swap is not a bug and, as far as I know, has been around a long time. It just isn't as likely to occur as the other nexus effects. When it does though, it's like suddenly being thrust into an iron-man game. A corollary is when you find an early !Experience and then get stat-drained. It can take a very, very long time to get to stat depth or find a mushroom of vigor. Meanwhile it's quite dangerous.

I know it's a feature, but I thought they removed it back when they were taking out all the unfairly nasty old-time stuff like the potions of death and whatnot.

[Derakon]

I know it's a feature, but I thought they removed it back when they were taking out all the unfairly nasty old-time stuff like the potions of death and whatnot.

I've been agitating for a few years for it to be replaced by a +3/-3 effect.

I guess I should just implement it and submit a pull request...?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I vote for keeping the nexus stat scramble effect as it is. Yes, if it happens and @ doesn't have rNexus it can be difficult to overcome (until stats are maxed), but difficult is not impossible. Plus it is a very rare effect versus the other nexus effects. It isn't a gotcha instadeath the way potions of death were. I guess I just don't like the tendency to water down the dangers.

[Timo Pietilä]

I've been agitating for a few years for it to be replaced by a +3/-3 effect.

I would rather remove raise one lower another -potions so that your stats increase in about steady rate and you don't have situation where one stat is at internal 3 and another at internal 18/150.

[Werbaer]

I would rather remove raise one lower another -potions so that your stats increase in about steady rate and you don't have situation where one stat is at internal 3 and another at internal 18/150.

18/150 internal is a bit high

But yes, without that min/max, swaps are much less dangerous. My last mage had his Int (18/50) swapped with Con, but the internal 10 translated to 17 Int, wich was survivable.

And the removal of the Charisma stat has made nexus attacks much more dangerous. Since Chr potions started to appear earlier than other potions, and were much cheaper to buy in the black market, odds were high that a scramble was in your favour.