Loving 3.5.0

[Malak Darkhunter]

[QUOTE=fizzix;92616]No it's not really blindness. It's an arbitrary gameplay state. However, calling it blindness is *useful* because it gives the players some idea of what to expect from that state. For example, if we called it blindness and prevented the player from quaffing potions, then they would get frustrated when they were blind and couldn't quaff. There's nothing in a standard player's understanding of language that equates blindness with an inability to drink. So there are two separate issues here.

1) Does the fact that you can recognize items on the ground conflict with the idea of "blindness" I say no, because the object have other distinguishing features, you say yes.

2) The second question is whether the departure from reality in 1 is significant enough to cause player frustration (which is the whole point behind calling it blindness and not something else irrelevant, like "fuzzy"). I say no, because no one ever gets frustrated when they discover they can do something that they might have thought they couldn't. It's only the other way around that causes frustration.[/QUOTe/]

I'm really surprised I'm having to argue about this. You guys can do what whatever you want with the game, I was merely trying to prove a point.

[krazyhades]

Very defensive reply that as far as I can tell does not address any of my points.

1) Blindness and especially hit-to-blind are dangerous for nonresistant casters
2) Recognizing floor items only saves characters in extreme edge cases
3) You can make a change yourself, for your game, and potentially even to be drawn into the main line.

[Malak Darkhunter]

You clearly don't play mages or priests. Blindness is terrifying, especially hit-to-blind.

edit: Also, I don't see how recognizing floor items while blind is gimping the blind debuff. I think it's an extremely edge case situation where it saves you. All it usually does is save you a few turns of hassle picking up items after a blinded fight that you didn't know to pick up earlier.

edit2: Again, if you care so much, change it yourself. Open source is open. If your change seems good, it could even be pulled into the core.

I've been playing since 1988, so I've covered pretty much every character class I would say, you clearly don't understand my knowledge of the game, and I know when something has changed. And that was my whole point behind posting and mentioning it, I wasn't looking for a crew of people to get on here and argue about the fact that YOU don't think anybody cares because actually I do, and I'm sure there are other people that do as well.

[fizzix]

okay then, it's not really blindness is it? lets call it clouded or something, maybe murky? I'm blind but I can still tell what's on the ground and I can still see my map, so I know where I'm going. from a game play perspective I think this is silly.

No it's not really blindness. It's an arbitrary gameplay state. However, calling it blindness is *useful* because it gives the players some idea of what to expect from that state. For example, if we called it blindness and prevented the player from quaffing potions, then they would get frustrated when they were blind and couldn't quaff. There's nothing in a standard player's understanding of language that equates blindness with an inability to drink. So there are two separate issues here.

1) Does the fact that you can recognize items on the ground conflict with the idea of "blindness" I say no, because the object have other distinguishing features, you say yes.

2) The second question is whether the departure from reality in 1 is significant enough to cause player frustration (which is the whole point behind calling it blindness and not something else irrelevant, like "fuzzy"). I say no, because no one ever gets frustrated when they discover they can do something that they might have thought they couldn't. It's only the other way around that causes frustration.

[krazyhades]

You clearly don't play mages or priests. Blindness is terrifying, especially hit-to-blind.

edit: Also, I don't see how recognizing floor items while blind is gimping the blind debuff. I think it's an extremely edge case situation where it saves you. All it usually does is save you a few turns of hassle picking up items after a blinded fight that you didn't know to pick up earlier.

edit2: Again, if you care so much, change it yourself. Open source is open. If your change seems good, it could even be pulled into the core.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I can't tell if this post is serious or not, and that bothers me.

Certainly I don't think that the game should e.g. wipe the map display when you're blind. Any gameplay change that encourages the player to take regular screenshots is against Angband's philosophy of gameplay.

As for being able to figure out what items are, we're already assuming that the player character has a perfectly organized backpack in which items never get jostled around or confused for each other and in which every item takes an equal amount of time to retrieve no matter what it is. And of course the character can carry a (two-handed!) sword, a shield, a lantern, and whatever item they're using at the moment, all with nominally two hands. Not only that, they can carry hundreds of pounds even with human-average strength with the only penalty being that they walk about half to a third as quickly as normal -- and they never get tired either. Putting armor on/off takes about 9 seconds* (at normal speed), the same amount of time it takes to chug a potion or hit a monster six times or walk 10 feet.

Basically what I'm saying is this seems like a weird place to start arguing about realism.

* 10k normal-speed turns between dawns means that each turn takes about 9s (3600*24/10000 = 8.64). Consequently, the player's base movement speed is about .8MPH.

I'm not arguing "realism" as I am arguing the ability of a player to "cheat" because we have obviously watered down blindness, to be almost irrelevant. I know this was not how this effect originally was, so it's been changed.If I can still see where I'm going and I can still see the items on the map and can still identify what is lying on the ground then it is not blindness, blindness as it is right now is pretty much irrelevant and annoying because guess what? it really dosen't do anything anymore nor does it add any excitement or danger to the game.

[Malak Darkhunter]

You want blindness to also prevent knowledge of what's on the player's square, I think that's unnecessary.

okay then, it's not really blindness is it? lets call it clouded or something, maybe murky? I'm blind but I can still tell what's on the ground and I can still see my map, so I know where I'm going. from a game play perspective I think this is silly.

[Derakon]

The problem as I see it is that it is almost like a cheat, a potion of beserk strength happens to boost HP, if you are getting killed and can blindly recognize items on the floor then that provides a means of escape, what if he happens to recognize that he picked up a staff of teleport? This "cheat" just saved his life. Now the fact that it is a minor thing is true, however to automaticaly think that no body cares is a great disservice to the game. If it's not worth the time to code then exactly what is? Other variants already have this.Everything should go black, and you should not be able to see didly squat, not even walls.

I can't tell if this post is serious or not, and that bothers me.

Certainly I don't think that the game should e.g. wipe the map display when you're blind. Any gameplay change that encourages the player to take regular screenshots is against Angband's philosophy of gameplay.

As for being able to figure out what items are, we're already assuming that the player character has a perfectly organized backpack in which items never get jostled around or confused for each other and in which every item takes an equal amount of time to retrieve no matter what it is. And of course the character can carry a (two-handed!) sword, a shield, a lantern, and whatever item they're using at the moment, all with nominally two hands. Not only that, they can carry hundreds of pounds even with human-average strength with the only penalty being that they walk about half to a third as quickly as normal -- and they never get tired either. Putting armor on/off takes about 9 seconds* (at normal speed), the same amount of time it takes to chug a potion or hit a monster six times or walk 10 feet.

Basically what I'm saying is this seems like a weird place to start arguing about realism.

* 10k normal-speed turns between dawns means that each turn takes about 9s (3600*24/10000 = 8.64). Consequently, the player's base movement speed is about .8MPH.

[fizzix]

If it's not worth the time to code then exactly what is?

Blindness is a gameplay state in which the player is unable to discern all monsters, items and terrain except for those items on their current square or in their inventory. It also provides penalties to hit during combat. It prevents the reading of scrolls or the casting of spells. However, it allows the player to manipulate all external objects as they normally would, including closing doors, opening chests, etc.

You want blindness to also prevent knowledge of what's on the player's square, I think that's unnecessary.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Definitely with fizzix on this one. It's not worth even a minor hassle to the devs to implement something that almost no player will ever care about. It's a minor break with realism, but nothing when compared with e.g. Santa Claus appearing on Christmas.

edit: If you want it so badly for your own game, do it yourself.

The problem as I see it is that it is almost like a cheat, a potion of beserk strength happens to boost HP, if you are getting killed and can blindly recognize items on the floor then that provides a means of escape, what if he happens to recognize that he picked up a staff of teleport? This "cheat" just saved his life. Now the fact that it is a minor thing is true, however to automaticaly think that no body cares is a great disservice to the game. If it's not worth the time to code then exactly what is? Other variants already have this.Everything should go black, and you should not be able to see didly squat, not even walls.

[krazyhades]

Definitely with fizzix on this one. It's not worth even a minor hassle to the devs to implement something that almost no player will ever care about. It's a minor break with realism, but nothing when compared with e.g. Santa Claus appearing on Christmas.

edit: If you want it so badly for your own game, do it yourself.

[fizzix]

The game already has an unknown status for items, from detection spells. Perhaps when you are blind or confused or hallucinating (etc?) all new items could be unknown? Maybe they could generate as a seed code (containing monster lvl, dlvl, etc) that allows for them to be created when the players status becomes sufficient for them to recognise the item?

Also I figure that each potion has a different shaped vial.

Well, honestly, I'm not sure this is either worth it or even desirable. Yes it's bizarre that the player knows that he picks up a scroll and it's teleportation even though he's blind and can't read. But who cares, he can't read it anyway. All other cases, rods, staves, wands, amulets, etc. you can assume that the player can figure it out by feel (this feels like ash, this feels like maple, etc.) From a gameplay perspective, what is the reason for limiting players in this manner?

[Carnivean]

This is actually a fairly hard problem. If you pick it up, should it get combined with other potions of berserk strength in your pack? If not, this becomes a lot of extra code and tracking in order to handle an edge case. I think the current behavior, while not ideal for "realism" is fine for gameplay. Maybe just assume that potions also have significant odors and your player has an acute sense of smell.

The game already has an unknown status for items, from detection spells. Perhaps when you are blind or confused or hallucinating (etc?) all new items could be unknown? Maybe they could generate as a seed code (containing monster lvl, dlvl, etc) that allows for them to be created when the players status becomes sufficient for them to recognise the item?

Also I figure that each potion has a different shaped vial.

[EpicMan]

Which is not a far-fetched idea, given your character also has superhuman strength, endurance, and reflexes, and at the same time is an all-wise genius.

[fizzix]

This is actually a fairly hard problem. If you pick it up, should it get combined with other potions of berserk strength in your pack? If not, this becomes a lot of extra code and tracking in order to handle an edge case. I think the current behavior, while not ideal for "realism" is fine for gameplay. Maybe just assume that potions also have significant odors and your player has an acute sense of smell.