The Monster Memory

[debo]

This definitely sounds like a grumpy old man thread, imo. We have a bunch of players saying "the monster memory is not something I like", and others trying to argue from first principles that they're "wrong". I don't particularly care what anyone think of my playstyle, so if asked my opinion I would tell the truth. However, if the game designers decided that was the "wrong" way to play -- well, it's their baby, and I'm fine with that.

I think this comes down to a "do the designers make the game they want to play, or the one the players want to play" call. I think history has shown that either approach can be right. The interesting part of this is that the intersection of those groups in this case seems to be somewhat large

There is a lot of (solicited) noise on some of the Sil topics, where people are basically saying "I don't like it this way and here is why", and in some cases the designers are saying "this was our reasoning and we believe we're correct". In some cases, they're making the suggested changes. I'm totally fine with that, and I will continue to play the game because the majority of the decisions they're making are ones that I like, and none of them are dealbreakers for me.

The monster memory thing in V isn't a dealbreaker for me either. I just personally don't like the decision.

One last thing -- Oramin mentioned before that length is inherent to the design of V, and that it's supposed to be a marathon. That's fine, but it's not why I liked V. For me, V's homogeneity of experience (dive, kill stuff, back to town, repeat) meant that it was easy for me to pick up, play a few levels, come back a day later, and keep doing the same thing. There aren't any huge skill trees for me to study or forks through the game for me to decide on, I just have to get to D100 and kill the big guy. That was why I liked it, in that my play could be sort of memoryless. The only thing impeding that playstyle was -- you guessed it -- not knowing anything about which monsters were dangerous, and so I used the spoilers.

(At the time I played, it was also very easy (3.2 -3.3). I was looking for a game with some risk, but not for one that was hard as nails. That incarnation of V definitely fit the bill, and I had a lot of fun with it.)

Anyhow, do what you will I just don't really understand the point of soliciting opinions from players on a topic if counterarguments are going to be made from the angle of "right" or "wrong" rather than "fun" or "annoying".

[Oramin]

Debo:

The key point that I've been trying to make is that the free complete monster memory *is* an option which anybody can already activate if they find it to be more "fun" or "convenient".

The real argument is based on whether or not it *should* continue to be considered to be a "cheat" option and, for the aforementioned reasons, I believe it should remain a "cheat" option.


Edit:

Maybe a real life analogy would make more sense.

Consider speeding and murder. There are laws against both. Let's equate save-scumming with murder and activating the complete free monster memory with speeding.

Obviously they aren't the same level of infraction but if you violate either set of laws then you are a lawbreaker.

Whenever I speed, I have no problem admitting that by doing so, I'm a lawbreaker.

Sure, it is more fun and convenient to speed and I can almost always get away with it, but I'm still a lawbreaker.

I could argue that the law should be changed but, personally, I don't think that arguing fun, convenience, or ease of ignoring the law are particularly good arguments.

If I want to change it, I need to show that the underlying reason for the law is flawed.

Yes, I realize that there's a difference between a game and real life but this is just an analogy to explain a point.

Getting a free complete monster memory was originally considered to be cheating by the folks who put the option into the game. I believe I have already explained why the game design indicates that this *should* be cheating.

So, fine, since the cheater flag doesn't stop you from using it (other than not wanting to get flagged) and there's no way to catch you using spoilers, why do the players who want a free complete monster memory feel the need to have their gameplay choices validated by not having the cheater label contrary to the design of the game?

[Scatha]

If you label something a cheat option, lots of players won't think about it and will assume it's a generally less enjoyable way of engaging with the game. I know if I came across a game I'd tend to take it at its own terms. I might play around with 'options', but I'd be quite likely to just use defaults, and unlikely to use options labelled as 'cheat' until I was familiar enough with the game to judge for myself.

You have some duty as a game designer to label the enjoyable ways to play. I think this is debo's point. Leaving it as a cheat option should be a statement that this is something which makes the game easier but a large majority of people will find less satisfying (such as infinite lives). If it's a majority but not a large one, it could be sensible to have it as an option, but not a default one. If a majority of players are likely to find it more satisfying, there's a good case for it being the default option.

[Derakon]

Maybe a real life analogy would make more sense.

Consider speeding and murder. There are laws against both. Let's equate save-scumming with murder and activating the complete free monster memory with speeding.

I'll freely admit I started only skimming posts pretty quickly in this thread.

But I can't imagine that you're making any friends when your argument starts from the supposition that the activity someone is performing is a crime.

1) This is a singleplayer game.
2) How you play the game does not affect my enjoyment of the game.
3) If the reverse is not true, then it is your problem, not mine.

The only exception to this is the ladder, since it exists in part so people can compare each others' performance. But you said earlier that the ladder wasn't why you were having this argument. Is it just because you think everyone would have more fun if they played without full monster memory? Clearly that's not the case; plenty of people are posting in this thread saying "Yeah, I tried that and I have more fun doing things my way". So what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?

I can't think of anything that can't be answered by pointing to item 3 in the list above.

[dzilla77]

As I indicated earlier in the thread, I think the fact that Probing is a spell available in the game indicates that the game design is to provide information about monsters in-game only after learning about the monsters by playing the game.

I think that this is an important part of the game and should remain as it is.

Based on that logic - monster memory should be wiped at the start of every character (not how it is now) and using saved or accumulated monster memory should be a cheat.

Like I said, I don't care either way, but the "I get the convenience cuz I played 60, 600 or 6000 hours in the game, but you don't, noob" doesn't feel like the right mechanic.

[Oramin]

I'll freely admit I started only skimming posts pretty quickly in this thread.

But I can't imagine that you're making any friends when your argument starts from the supposition that the activity someone is performing is a crime.

1) This is a singleplayer game.
2) How you play the game does not affect my enjoyment of the game.
3) If the reverse is not true, then it is your problem, not mine.

The only exception to this is the ladder, since it exists in part so people can compare each others' performance. But you said earlier that the ladder wasn't why you were having this argument. Is it just because you think everyone would have more fun if they played without full monster memory? Clearly that's not the case; plenty of people are posting in this thread saying "Yeah, I tried that and I have more fun doing things my way". So what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?

I can't think of anything that can't be answered by pointing to item 3 in the list above.

Then, Derakon, why don't you read the entire post before you comment?

I've done you the courtesy of reading your posts (and every other post in this thread, for that matter) in their entirety and carefully considering your arguments. If you believe the game should be changed then do me the same courtesy.

Maybe this sentence would have made a difference:

Yes, I realize that there's a difference between a game and real life but this is just an analogy to explain a point.

And, if it is truly the case that how other people play the game is irrelevant, then may I conclude that you are endorsing removing *all* cheat flags - including the one for infinite lives?

[Oramin]

Based on that logic - monster memory should be wiped at the start of every character (not how it is now) and using saved or accumulated monster memory should be a cheat.

Like I said, I don't care either way, but the "I get the convenience cuz I played 60, 600 or 6000 hours in the game, but you don't, noob" doesn't feel like the right mechanic.

I take it you missed MattB's answer to your earlier question?

Before you went out into the big bad dungeon on your own, your Daddy sat you down on his knee and told you everything he knew about the baddies that lurk within, in the hope that you might come back to see him with all of your limbs attached. Someof the knowledge was passed down to him from his father, and his father's father and so on.

It should only work with dynasties (e.g. Funt I, Funt II, Funt III etc).

[Oramin]

If you label something a cheat option, lots of players won't think about it and will assume it's a generally less enjoyable way of engaging with the game. I know if I came across a game I'd tend to take it at its own terms. I might play around with 'options', but I'd be quite likely to just use defaults, and unlikely to use options labelled as 'cheat' until I was familiar enough with the game to judge for myself.

You have some duty as a game designer to label the enjoyable ways to play. I think this is debo's point. Leaving it as a cheat option should be a statement that this is something which makes the game easier but a large majority of people will find less satisfying (such as infinite lives). If it's a majority but not a large one, it could be sensible to have it as an option, but not a default one. If a majority of players are likely to find it more satisfying, there's a good case for it being the default option.

A reasonable argument.

I wouldn't make that assumption, however, about seeing something labeled a cheat option. I would just regard it as an option provided for the players to goof around with or learn more about how the game works. I woudn't regard it as necessarily a less enjoyable way to play.

[DaviddesJ]

I'll note that the only times, so far, that I've seen an argument with DaviddesJ end are when the other party gives up and walks away. As far as I can tell, he is physically incapable of letting anyone else have the last word in any discussion.

Looks like I'm winning this argument without even having to join it.

[Oramin]

Looks like I'm winning this argument without even having to join it.

It does kind of seem that way. Give it a bit longer.

[Nick]

Well, dzilla77 and Scatha have convinced me - I'm making it not a cheat option in FAangband. Also, I'm going to relabel all the other cheat options as debug options.

Who am I to tell any alphabet-slaughterer who plays FA that they're a cheat?

[Oramin]

Well, dzilla77 and Scatha have convinced me - I'm making it not a cheat option in FAangband. Also, I'm going to relabel all the other cheat options as debug options.

Who am I to tell any alphabet-slaughterer who plays FA that they're a cheat?

Go for it - your game, your rules. Are you also removing Probing spells (if they exist in that variant)?

[Nick]

Go for it - your game, your rules. Are you also removing Probing spells (if they exist in that variant)?

No - having some useless spells can be the punishment for using that option

[dzilla77]

Well, dzilla77 and Scatha have convinced me - I'm making it not a cheat option in FAangband. Also, I'm going to relabel all the other cheat options as debug options.

Who am I to tell any alphabet-slaughterer who plays FA that they're a cheat?

I suspect you are being facetious, but if not, don't misconstrue what I am saying - if foreknowledge prior to playing is cheating, then, in my opinion, so is foreknowledge gained from prior characters when starting a new character.

I rather like the discovery myself and will probably never submit a character to a comp or ladder anyway, so keeping it as a cheat is fine with me- but I think it should be erased when you start a new character.

I *might* be convinced that a win could provide the knowledge.

[dzilla77]

I take it you missed MattB's answer to your earlier question?

No, I read it, laughed, and moved on - doesn't justify the game mechanic. Most characters get killed before they have a chance to start a family anyway.