The Monster Memory

[Monkey Face]

I'm going to come out with one more argument in favor of making monster memory a non cheat option. I've been playing the game for about 15 years and know what most of the monsters can do by now, so their memories come up when a see them. However, the developers keep improving the game and releasing new versions. In at least some cases, a save file from one version won't work on the next. This means I have to start to build my monster memory up from scratch. It would clearly be easier to have someplace to check whether it is the hill or cave orc that does 1d10 damage per hit. So is it right that I "lost" this knowledge when I change versions?

[Oramin]

I'm going to come out with one more argument in favor of making monster memory a non cheat option. I've been playing the game for about 15 years and know what most of the monsters can do by now, so their memories come up when a see them. However, the developers keep improving the game and releasing new versions. In at least some cases, a save file from one version won't work on the next. This means I have to start to build my monster memory up from scratch. It would clearly be easier to have someplace to check whether it is the hill or cave orc that does 1d10 damage per hit. So is it right that I "lost" this knowledge when I change versions?

That's when I consider it appropriate to be checking out the spoilers within the rules of the cheat options.

But, really, how often does a situation like that come up? When I accidentally wiped my monster memory by overwriting my character file (note to self - don't select "new"), even though I made a point of examining or killing the monsters enough to restore the monster memory, I almost never checked it since I'm an experienced player and already "knew" (outside of the game) what the monsters did.

Really, that sounds more like an argument for convincing the devs to create a way to transfer monster memories between versions rather than making it a non-cheat option.

(One of the two choices is, of course, obviously less work...)

[Mikko Lehtinen]

if foreknowledge prior to playing is cheating, then, in my opinion, so is foreknowledge gained from prior characters when starting a new character.

IMO writing down stuff about monsters in your notebook is an honest way of trying to become a better player. Monster memory just removes the tedious work.

It's kinda like automapping in modern Dungeon Master -style games. Legend of Grimrock does have an option to play without automaps for real men who love their grid paper...

BTW, do all *bands have the EyAngband artifact memory yet?

[takkaria]

BTW, do all *bands have the EyAngband artifact memory yet?

Is that so that once you ID an artifact once in one game, all future games have it ID'd already? Not sure I like that...

[Mikko Lehtinen]

You do have to identify the artifact normally to learn its name. At that point it becomes fully identified if you've *identified* it in previous games.

[MattB]

Most characters get killed before they have a chance to start a family anyway.

Have you never wondered why your @ sometimes spams off a WoR when you don't really need to return to the town...

[takkaria]

You do have to identify the artifact normally to learn its name. At that point it becomes fully identified if you've *identified* it in previous games.

Ah, I see. V doesn't have this, but it got rid of *ID* yonks ago so I guess it doesn't apply there.

[Oramin]

Have you never wondered why your @ sometimes spams off a WoR when you don't really need to return to the town...

@ keeps a log.


"Angband Date 113,425, @'s Log, @ reporting. I have just returned from the 35th level of the dungeon of Angband. My most recent encounters include Medusa the Gorgon who summoned many Hydrae and several hundred Tribbles who bred explosively. I am beginning to fear for my life as I boldly explore where no @ has gone before."

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Ah, I see. V doesn't have this, but it got rid of *ID* yonks ago so I guess it doesn't apply there.

It's cool that identifying objects is getting more interesting in Angband. (I've been doing a bit of spying on v4.)

It bothers me slightly that identifying artifacts used to be so tedious in *bands that people learned to use spoilers rather than wait for the *Id* scroll. The gameplay wasn't fun, so that's perfectly understandable.

I think I have pretty fun identify mechanics in Halls of Mist (though not everybody likes them) and lots of new, cool artifacts to identify in the next version. Part of that fun may be lost because of the spoiler addiction. Game balance also suffers slightly, because your identifying ability depends on your stats and skills. A friendly note from the game designer is probably enough of an antidote against this behavior.

I don't feel as strongly about monster memory because Mist doesn't have any fancy game mechanics there. Giving perfect monster information might even lead to better gameplay, I'm not sure.

[Timo Pietilä]

The key point that I've been trying to make is that the free complete monster memory *is* an option which anybody can already activate if they find it to be more "fun" or "convenient".

I'd argue that this option should be removed. Really. The entire reason for this long debate is that it exists in the game. If you want to use spoilers, then use spoilers, there is no reason game should give them freely. Maybe put it in debug-mode commands.

As a side-point, monster abilities should be more or less hinted in the description directly. There really are not many surprises to learn:

1) the fact that unresisted basic four and poison can reach so high damage that it might kill even maxed out char at the time you meet the first bad one (AMHD, Dracoli(sk/ch), drolem)
2) stunning can lead to knock out which is pretty much same as instant death.
3) paralyzation is deadly, if not instantly, then without good luck.

.... And that's it basically. If you think there are more that you could fit into monster memory entry, please put it in here. It doesn't take long to learn those few that exist.

Complete monster memory is not needed for convenient playing. If you feel that you need to know everything about monster before you have even seen it then you are doing something wrong.

[fizzix]

I'd argue that this option should be removed. Really. The entire reason for this long debate is that it exists in the game. If you want to use spoilers, then use spoilers, there is no reason game should give them freely. Maybe put it in debug-mode commands.

As a developer, I'd much prefer it not be removed, if only because I'm always restarting save files because I inevitably corrupt them accidentally through bug-fixing and the like. It's possible to keep a completely clean branch and save-file for playing, but it's easy to make mistakes.

For the non-developer, playing a couple times to gain full monster memory is not *too* much of a hardship, but it would be super-annoying to someone like me who loses their main save file all the time.

[DaviddesJ]

Complete monster memory is not needed for convenient playing. If you feel that you need to know everything about monster before you have even seen it then you are doing something wrong.

What I like is different from what you like. What I want to know when playing is different from what you want to know when playing. It's not "right" or "wrong" for me to enjoy something different from what you enjoy. The fact that different people like different things is one of the most wonderful aspects of human existence. Just imagine how boring life would be if everyone liked exactly the same things. And think how uninteresting it is for you to tell me what I should like and how I should play. How interested would you be if I started telling you that you shouldn't like what you like, and you should like what I like and follow my instructions about how to play, instead?

[Oramin]

And how about if people starting saying the official rules of chess should be altered to allow people to add extra queens for free because they like it?

Nothing is stopping you or anybody else from using the free complete monster memory; you only need to accept that currently under the design of the game that is considered to be cheating.

[Timo Pietilä]

How interested would you be if I started telling you that you shouldn't like what you like, and you should like what I like and follow my instructions about how to play, instead?

You do that all of time anyway, so I just ignore your opinions.

[Timo Pietilä]

Nothing is stopping you or anybody else from using the free complete monster memory; you only need to accept that currently under the design of the game that is considered to be cheating.

I believe that for people like DaviddesJ it is more difficult to have an option that makes gaming a bit easier and marks their char as cheater than not have an option at all. I'm pretty sure that if that option were never added to the game he would be happy and not think of it at all.

Hint to Takkaria: this is perfect candidate for option removal.