V 3.5 now in feature freeze

[DaviddesJ]

No, it was a goal. I said - I thought it was dodgy that shopholders sold 0 charge things, so I made them recharge it. And as Derakon said, items not normally stocked by the stores are not recharged.

So, it's dodgy that shopkeepers sell 0 charge things, but they still do sell 0 charge things if those are things they wouldn't normally recharge?

It still seems a bit odd to me, but if they are only recharging items that are the same items that they always sell and you could always buy just by waiting for the store to restock, then it's certainly not a big deal. Thanks for explaining.

[takkaria]

So the infinite recharging in town wasn't a goal, just a side effect? What happens if you sell them the more powerful items (the ones they aren't supposed to recharge)?

No, it was a goal. I said - I thought it was dodgy that shopholders sold 0 charge things, so I made them recharge it. And as Derakon said, items not normally stocked by the stores are not recharged.

[Oramin]

I suppose it depends on how you look at it, David.

In other games, you have to rely on your memory/experience or external sources for information about monsters. The monster memory is a convenient substitute for *your* memory within the game so you don't have to take notes. It is not (or at least shouldn't be) a source of free infinite knowledge about monsters.

Besides, as an experienced player, you should already all the monsters in your monster memory. When I screwed up and accidentally overwrote my character file, I made a point of probing all the monsters in the following game so that my monster memory would be complete again.

Edit:

sources -> monsters

[DaviddesJ]

However, if you want to make monster knowledge easier, you could have two options.

I don't want to make monster knowledge easier. It's already super-easy, I just turn the setting on, this is a good design. I very much appreciate it. It makes the game easier and more fun to play than in the "old days" when I would consult external references.

I'm just saying that I think that marking all of the games played this way as "cheating" fractures the community unnecessarily. It would be better to separate it from the "cheat" settings like "infinite lives". I don't think looking up monster data (however you do it) is much like resurrecting yourself forever. If you do think so, then you'll probably have a different opinion than me about this.

[fizzix]

My point about stores recharging items only applies to games with no_selling. I think the philosophy of that setting is to eliminate the unproductive activity of running back and forth to town, as much as possible. If you like running back and forth to town, that's very different.

Is it that fundamentally different from running back to town and buying a new teleportation staff when yours runs out? Or buying as many as you can afford and stashing them at home in case the shops are empty? Or the even worse, resting on dlevel 1 until the stores restock?

[Oramin]

Ok, fair enough.

Regarding the earlier discussion of monster memory, I like having to find out what monsters do instead of knowing everything instantaneously. In other words, I'm happy with the design as it is, including the "cheater" setting for people who want infinite knowledge without earning it. Sure, you can just look it up in the spoilers, but then you can also backup your save file.

However, if you want to make monster knowledge easier, you could have two options.

1. Have Scrolls/Staves of Probing which can be purchased in the stores.

2. Have Scrolls of History which can be found/purchased which give you information about monsters.

[DaviddesJ]

Oh, and for the record, I *don't* agree with eliminating carrying stuff back and forth to town. If you folks want to play no_selling, up to you.

My point about stores recharging items only applies to games with no_selling. I think the philosophy of that setting is to eliminate the unproductive activity of running back and forth to town, as much as possible. If you like running back and forth to town, that's very different.

[Oramin]

You don't *have* to return to town to recharge your items. It is a choice that you make just like no_selling is a choice you make.

I happen to pop back up to town to recharge my Staves of Identify but then I also head back upstairs to sell stuff off. I could just as easily carry Scrolls of Recharging with me to save me the hassle or I could play a character that gets Identify relatively early.

If you want to have a 100% recharging rate, pop back upstairs. If you don't want to pop back upstairs, then carry scrolls.


Oh, and for the record, I *don't* agree with eliminating carrying stuff back and forth to town. If you folks want to play no_selling, up to you. Let me repeat - don't try to force your gameplay preferences down other people's throats.

Sheesh, I'm beginning to think some people here might have been the designers of Windows 8.

[Derakon]

I do agree that in the ideal world you wouldn't have to return to town to recharge your staves. Perhaps the frequencies of those items can be tweaked.

But I also don't see any difference between _Identify/_Teleport/_Mapping and !CCW/?Phase/?WoR in terms of how I treat them. Heck, if the alchemist has a big pile of ?Identify then I'll buy that out and leave the staves at home for one trip -- saves on weight and I'm not as likely to lose the entire supply to a single fire attack.

[DaviddesJ]

I added it to the game because it didn't seem to make any sense that a shop would sell 0 charge items.

So the infinite recharging in town wasn't a goal, just a side effect? What happens if you sell them the more powerful items (the ones they aren't supposed to recharge)?

[takkaria]

OK, you can come up with a story to explain it, but why not just take it out of the game entirely? What purpose does it serve? I agree with the design goal of discouraging people from carrying stuff back and forth to town; getting rid of this would be just one more step in that direction. If you want ways for people to recharge items, just give them those ways, e.g., scrolls of recharging.

I added it to the game because it didn't seem to make any sense that a shop would sell 0 charge items. I retain that impression now and I think the gameplay of it is fine.

[DaviddesJ]

But then all those high-level, powerful staves can be recharged and used over and over again. You can bet I'd do a lot more Destruction if I could just use a staff and then safely recharge it.

If you want automatic guaranteed recharging of weaker items and risky recharging of more powerful items, it's easy enough to make the scrolls do that.

there's a big difference between carrying back a utility item so you can get it topped up (roughly equivalent to buying more !CCW or ?Phase) and carrying back loot with the sole purpose of selling it for money.

Running back to town every time you want to recharge your staff seems a lot different from carrying a large stack of CCW potions or PD scrolls or Recharge scrolls that last almost forever. It just seems like a perfect example of something that you can do but creates a lot of repetitive back-and-forth.

Of course, if it's only for equipment that also can be bought in the store, you can always just camp and wait for the store to replenish, that would be even worse. I would just say it seems like a great example of something where if that's the effect you want, it can be made easier. For that matter, you could just have the stores sell rods instead of staves of these limited items, let them last forever and not bother with recharging at all. If these are abilities that are supposed to be in infinite supply for a modest amount of money.

[Derakon]

But then all those high-level, powerful staves can be recharged and used over and over again. You can bet I'd do a lot more Destruction if I could just use a staff and then safely recharge it.

As for cost, while I can generally afford to recharge Identify/Teleport when I'm in town, there's a lengthy period where it takes a significant chunk of my funds to do so. It's only in the late game that the cost becomes insignificant.

And for inconsistency with no_selling, a) note this works in selling games too, and is actually cheaper since the 0-charge staff is worth money, and b) there's a big difference between carrying back a utility item so you can get it topped up (roughly equivalent to buying more !CCW or ?Phase) and carrying back loot with the sole purpose of selling it for money.

[DaviddesJ]

Scrolls of recharging can fail, and staves, especially staves of Identify and Teleport, are rather important items that are not available in unlimited quantity. I don't see any problem with the player paying a premium to get a failsafe recharge.

It seems to me inconsistent with the idea of no_selling, which is to reduce incentives to carry items back and forth to town all the time. The cost is also insignificant once you get to any significant point in the game. If you want to give players a guaranteed, automatic recharge, then it would make more sense to just make the scrolls always available and foolproof. You get the result you want and you eliminate (or reduce) the trekking back and forth.

[Derakon]

Scrolls of recharging can fail, and staves, especially staves of Identify and Teleport, are rather important items that are not available in unlimited quantity. I don't see any problem with the player paying a premium to get a failsafe recharge. It's a bit weird that this is done by buying and selling the item, but oh well.

As for the reason why this is done, it's probably so that selling your empty staves to a store that already has a stock of those staves doesn't "dilute" the pool of charges. For example, if the store has 3 Staves of Detect Evil (27 charges), then there's 9 charges/staff. If you sell two empty staves to them, now it's 5 Staves of Detect Evil (27 charges), or 5-6 charges/staff.

Note that the magic shop can't recharge any staff that it is not itself able to sell -- if you try to get them to fill up a Staff of Destruction or the like, they won't do anything to it.