A Few Questions/Observations From an Old Player

[quarague]

I agree that blow count could use some fixing. I think what it currently does, is compute your number of blows based on strength, dex and char level and afterwards apply the bounds of 4/5/6 depending on char class. Which means my current hobbit mage at level 40+ gets the max 4 blows per round with any weapon, although his strength is only 18/80 or so.
One fix would be to use the same base computation for all classes with say max blows 4 and then multiply the number of blows by 1.25 for max blow=5 classes and by 1.5 for warriors. That would mean that a mage has to put in the same effort in terms of stats to get his 4 blows as a warrior for 6. It would also give warriors 1.5 blows with any weapon, so they might use heavy weapons earlier instead of mighty HT warriors running around with tiny daggers.

[Derakon]

I agree that blow count could use some fixing. I think what it currently does, is compute your number of blows based on strength, dex and char level and afterwards apply the bounds of 4/5/6 depending on char class.

Not quite -- level has no effect on blows; it's just STR/DEX/weapon weight. And warriors have a different blows calculation from rogues/rangers/paladins, who have a different blows calculation from mages/priests.

One fix would be to use the same base computation for all classes with say max blows 4 and then multiply the number of blows by 1.25 for max blow=5 classes and by 1.5 for warriors.

That's similar to what was suggested earlier, that warriors use the same blows calculation as the hybrid classes, but get a free bonus blow regardless of weapon at, say, clvl 25 (much lie rangers get bonus shots with bows). It would be a simplification, and also mean that warriors would be able to get their full number of blows with all weapons (except maybe Grond, which IIRC hybrid classes can't max on either).

That would mean that a mage has to put in the same effort in terms of stats to get his 4 blows as a warrior for 6. It would also give warriors 1.5 blows with any weapon, so they might use heavy weapons earlier instead of mighty HT warriors running around with tiny daggers.

That's generally only in the early game. And 1.5 blows with a longsword isn't going to beat 3.5 blows with a dagger, unfortunately.

[DaviddesJ]

That's generally only in the early game. And 1.5 blows with a longsword isn't going to beat 3.5 blows with a dagger, unfortunately.

If you really wanted heavier weapons to be more attractive with fewer blows, you really need to change the way to-hit bonuses work. If the to-hit bonus were a percentage of the base damage, rather than a fixed additive, then heavier weapons would look way better relative to lighter weapons. But when the great majority of the damage is coming from your bonus rather than from the base damage of the weapon itself, you can't really expect people to give up blows with a heavier weapon.

[Derakon]

Assuming you meant to-dam instead of to-hit, you're right. Both O-style and v4-style combat do something like what you suggested: make damage bonuses into a multiplier of base damage instead of an addition. But it's a fairly drastic change; I suspect Vanilla is going to keep its current combat system for the foreseeable future.

[Timo Pietilä]

Assuming you meant to-dam instead of to-hit, you're right. Both O-style and v4-style combat do something like what you suggested: make damage bonuses into a multiplier of base damage instead of an addition. But it's a fairly drastic change; I suspect Vanilla is going to keep its current combat system for the foreseeable future.

I think NPP uses o-combat model. It didn't feel that much different, just shooters suffer big inflation in that model. Maybe if shooter multiplier works as ammo dice multiplier then it could work in vanilla.

Requires massive playtest to get same feeling, but it is doable.

[Oramin]

BTW, when did the game switch over to the launcher multiplier working on the launcher damage bonus? IIRC, the multiplier used to only work on the missile and the launcher damage bonus was added in afterwards.

[Derakon]

I think NPP uses o-combat model.

If it does, then this is a recent change.

You can recognize O-style combat because instead of getting pluses to-dam, you get pluses to "deadliness".

[Timo Pietilä]

BTW, when did the game switch over to the launcher multiplier working on the launcher damage bonus? IIRC, the multiplier used to only work on the missile and the launcher damage bonus was added in afterwards.

You recall incorrectly. In vanilla launcher multiplier has always multiplied the entire damage. In fact that was toned down a bit recently, is also used to multiply slay multipliers (3x from slay * 3x from launcher = 9x entire damage) now it adds to that (3x from slay + 3x from launcher = 6x entire damage).

[Timo Pietilä]

If it does, then this is a recent change.

You can recognize O-style combat because instead of getting pluses to-dam, you get pluses to "deadliness".

It was some variant I used to play quite a lot...Sangband maybe? Not the O itself.

[DaviddesJ]

You recall incorrectly. In vanilla launcher multiplier has always multiplied the entire damage. In fact that was toned down a bit recently, is also used to multiply slay multipliers (3x from slay * 3x from launcher = 9x entire damage) now it adds to that (3x from slay + 3x from launcher = 6x entire damage).

Shouldn't 3x from slay + 3x from launcher = 5x damage? Not 6x.

After all, 1x without slay + 3x from launcher = 3x damage. Not 4x.

[Timo Pietilä]

Shouldn't 3x from slay + 3x from launcher = 5x damage? Not 6x.

After all, 1x without slay + 3x from launcher = 3x damage. Not 4x.

That's 0x without slay. Damage alone is not multiplier.

[DaviddesJ]

That's 0x without slay. Damage alone is not multiplier.

Weapons without slay ability do 1x damage. If they did 0x damage, then the base damage would be completely ignored, because 0 times anything is 0. A slay 3x bonus multiplies the base damage by 3x; it doesn't add an additional 3x the base damage (which would be 4x total). Unless I'm really missing something here.

[Timo Pietilä]

Weapons without slay ability do 1x damage. If they did 0x damage, then the base damage would be completely ignored, because 0 times anything is 0. A slay 3x bonus multiplies the base damage by 3x; it doesn't add an additional 3x the base damage (which would be 4x total). Unless I'm really missing something here.

Yes, but 1x is not multiplier. It is just base damage. Get the point?

[DaviddesJ]

Yes, but 1x is not multiplier. It is just base damage. Get the point?

No, I don't get the point.

A slay 3x power adds twice the base damage as the bonus from the slay power. Therefore generating a total of 3x the base damage.

If you combine this with a launcher with a 3x multiplier, then it should add an additional amount of twice the base damage, therefore producing the equivalent of a 5x multiplier. Not 6x.

One way to see that the 6x result (3+3) is wrong is to imagine that you had a slay 1x power, which is the same as having no slay power at all. If you combine a slay 1x power (i.e., nothing) with a 3x launcher, you should get 3x, not 4x.

You can see the same thing in other ways, too. This is just one easy way to understand it.

[Oramin]

If you wanted to tone down the damage, wouldn't it make more sense to keep multiplying the missile damage and not apply the launcher multiple to the bonus damage on the launcher itself (like the way I thought it used to work)?

That will also avoid the 5x vs 6x discussion you folks are having.