A Few Questions/Observations From an Old Player

[Timo Pietilä]

The easiest way to understand why it's wrong is because if you have an x3 launcher and x1 missiles then you don't get x4 damage. We know that because the shops sell x1 missiles (i.e., ordinary, nonmagical arrows) and they only give x3 total damage. So adding the multipliers is illogical and gives the wrong result in that case. That means it's equally illogical to add the multipliers when you have x3 missiles.

Both add the same base individually, so there are x3 twice. It applies even when slay is in shooter, not only when it is in missile.

Illogical is to assume that you have simple 1x missiles when in reality you have base dice + to_dam from missile + to_dam from shooter which gets multiplied. That imaginary "1x" is not there, only base damage which is not multiplier by itself.

There is no 1x shooter either. Or do you call throwing an arrow a shooter with 1x multiplier?

[Timo Pietilä]

I take it that you don't want to answer the question about your degrees. It doesn't matter, I was just curious.

No, I don't want to give you any info about me beyond my name. You sound like a troll to be avoided.

[Oramin]

Timo:

The easiest way to think about it is that an x3 mutiplier adds 200% damage.

So, an ordinary arrow fired from a long bow is (base + 2 x base).

A slay arrow is (base + 2 x base).

So, for a slay arrow fired from a long bow, you add in the bonus 200% damage twice: base + 2 x base + 2 x base = 5 x base.

[DaviddesJ]

I (used to) know lots of stuff about Gerard Manley Hopkins and Walt Whitman, and I'm happy to accept whatever bonus damage is on offer.

My theory is looking good!

[Derakon]

Okay, can we stop trying to score points against each other in a stupid internet debate? Neither of you is accomplishing anything except raising your respective blood pressures and annoying everyone else.

[Magnate]

You sound like a troll to be avoided.

Unfortunately it's worse than simple trolling, it's an ego that can't be wrong.

[DaviddesJ]

I'm often wrong. If you aren't wrong sometimes, you aren't forming enough opinions.

[Oramin]

Folks, either can the personal opinions about each other or go take it to somebody else's thread.

Thanks.

[Nick]

I'm often wrong. If you aren't wrong sometimes, you aren't forming enough opinions.

This just reminds me of a quote from someone I know slightly:
"If you don't miss a few flights, you're spending too much time in airports"

Completely irrelevant, but there you go.

Sorry Oramin, I'll shut up now

[nppangband]

I think NPP uses o-combat model. It didn't feel that much different, just shooters suffer big inflation in that model.

I have taken alot from Oangband, but not the combat system.

I did recently make a change where damage multipliers (slays, brands, good/great hits, etc) increase the number of damage dice before the roll, rather than doubling the damage afterthe damage roll. That is an Oangband-combatish change. But NPP doesn't have damage bonuses as percentages.

On that note, for a good/great hits, NPP now rolls the damage twice and takes the higher value. I thought that was a serious flaw.... the player gets a good hit with a 1d6 item, rolls a 1, and doubles it to 2 (plus a small to-hit bonus), and there is nothing special about the final damage calculation.

[Timo Pietilä]

Timo:

The easiest way to think about it is that an x3 mutiplier adds 200% damage.

So, an ordinary arrow fired from a long bow is (base + 2 x base).

A slay arrow is (base + 2 x base).

So, for a slay arrow fired from a long bow, you add in the bonus 200% damage twice: base + 2 x base + 2 x base = 5 x base.

That would be true if the base damage doesn't get added twice, which in this case is the case. Looks like this is just POV issue. I treat both multipliers separately as two different individual sources (which is how game treats them), you add the added extras together.

x3 multiplier adds 200%, but it is 300% of the damage.

[DaviddesJ]

The base damage doesn't get "added twice" with ordinary arrows. You get x3 damage from the x3 launcher, but you don't count the base damage again when firing ordinary arrows.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" with branded arrows. You add elemental damage from the branding, but you still don't count the base damage twice.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" when using slay melee weapons. They can get x3 base damage from the slay power, but they don't count the base damage twice.

It's hard to see why slay arrows should be the only case where, in addition to the slay bonus, you increase the damage by adding the base damage twice.

[Magnate]

I'm often wrong.

Oh good, that's progress. Unfortunately I've yet to see you actually say that in a real situation, despite encountering you over two decades in several different gaming fora (it always amuses me how similar our tastes in games are). I look forward to it happening here - you're 0 for 2 so far but it's early days yet.

If you aren't wrong sometimes, you aren't forming enough opinions.

I'm wrong quite a lot, as hundreds of people here will attest. There are also some posts where I actually acknowledge it.

Happy belated birthday btw - I notice you hit the big 5-0 recently.

[wobbly]

The base damage doesn't get "added twice" with ordinary arrows. You get x3 damage from the x3 launcher, but you don't count the base damage again when firing ordinary arrows.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" with branded arrows. You add elemental damage from the branding, but you still don't count the base damage twice.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" when using slay melee weapons. They can get x3 base damage from the slay power, but they don't count the base damage twice.

It's hard to see why slay arrows should be the only case where, in addition to the slay bonus, you increase the damage by adding the base damage twice.

I was watching a pigeon fly into a glass window the other day. It tried over & over again without getting anywhere. For some reason the 2 of you arguing reminded me of this.

[Oramin]

As I indicated, why not avoid the whole issue?

Let the launcher multiplier apply to the missile damage and simply add the launcher bonus damage in afterwards.

For example with Belthronding (X3) (+20, +22) (+1)

(or whatever the format is for an extra shot)

Applying the multiplier only to the arrow damage would reduce the per round output (assuming 2 shots) by 88 points.