A Few Questions/Observations From an Old Player

[Oramin]

Assuming that we have additional scrolls of Satisfy Hunger. Besides, even with the additional scrolls, we still have to take a turn in the middle of the combat to read one. This could lead to:

Take massive damage

Start Loop:

Drink healing potion
Become "Gorged"
Read scroll
Take massive damage while reading scroll

End Loop:

I agree that healing potions shouldn't be able to trigger a "Gorged" state. I'm guessing that potions started giving sustenance as an emergency measure for those who are careless enough to not keep an eye on their food. It really shouldn't be a punishment for the players who do make an effort to pay attention.

[emulord]

I like this behavior. If you 'I'nspect the items you'll find this behavior, so it's not a hidden punishment. It makes rations of food better for very late game anyway, which is kinda funny.

[Oramin]

Not really. While the healing potions tell you how many turns they add to the food counter, IIRC the Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger don't tell you that they set the food counter to just under the "Gorged" state.

Incidentally, didn't there used to be a "Satiated" state between "Full" and "Gorged"?

[Derakon]

Incidentally, didn't there used to be a "Satiated" state between "Full" and "Gorged"?

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of NetHack; as best I can recall Angband has never had that distinction.

Perhaps Satisfy Hunger should set the food counter to just below Full instead? IIRC that's where you start out with a new character. Though personally I kinda like that Satisfy Hunger is counter-indicated if you expect to be chugging potions in the near future. It creates fun dynamics.

[Oramin]

Hmm, possibly, but I never played that much NetHack; more likely I'm remembering it from Omega or Rogue.

[dhegler]

I think it may have been Hack (which I guess led to Nethack)...

[buzzkill]

Second satisfy hunger removes gorged state.

@ suffers from a nasty eating disorder and should seek professional counseling.

[Timo Pietilä]

I like this behavior. If you 'I'nspect the items you'll find this behavior, so it's not a hidden punishment. It makes rations of food better for very late game anyway, which is kinda funny.

I usually collect Elvish Waybread for chars that can't cast satisfy hunger reliably. Those are light (a bit lighter than potions, quite a bit lighter than satisfy hunger scrolls), are not vulnerable to inventory damage, heal you a tiny bit and IIRC cure poison. They are also quite common late into game. Eat one when you get hungry and you are below gorged threshold enough that you can safely drink potions of healing.

To get gorged in middle of the fight is just lesson to learn, which if you are smart you need to learn only once. It's not a big deal.

[EDIT] "nearly as light as potions" -> "a bit lighter than potions"

[Oramin]

I just found a Sling of Buckland and I noticed that it has a range of 140 while Belthronding (artifact long bow for those who haven't memorized all the items) has a range of 120. What's the reasoning behind this?

[Derakon]

Range is related to the multiplier on the weapon; if the Buckland sling has a higher multiplier (and they can get pretty big, IIRC), then it'll have a longer range.

Accuracy decreases with range, though, so you probably don't want to be doing much shooting at long range anyway.

[Oramin]

Thanks, so I guess I just found a use for those Wands of Annihilation. I should use those up until Morgoth gets within 10 squares or so.

A few more questions:

1. Is there a penalty to shooting monsters that are adjacent to you?

2. Is it my imagination or are crossbows definitely inferior? I've seen Bows of Lothlorien and Slings of Buckland. I don't recall ever seeing a Heavy Crossbow of the Haradrim which, if I'm reading the stuff correctly, has a chance for +1 Might and +1 Shooting Speed and seems to be the only crossbow comparable in damage. Cubragol is nice for the Speed bonus but doesn't seem to deal all that much in the way of damage (and I'm already at a base of +26 with Belthroding) and I dumped Umbar since at X6 and a single shot it didn't seem worth it compared with Belthronding.

3. I always find Belthronding (not complaining, btw) and I don't think I've ever found Bard. The only times I've found Sting has been below L70. Are those two items (Bard, Sting) especially rare?

[fizzix]

1. Is there a penalty to shooting monsters that are adjacent to you?

No, although people have sometimes argued for its inclusion. Other ideas are to give a 1 turn penalty to AC or a free attack to monsters if you engage in point-blank archery. (I think variants do one or the other or both)

2. Is it my imagination or are crossbows definitely inferior? I've seen Bows of Lothlorien and Slings of Buckland. I don't recall ever seeing a Heavy Crossbow of the Haradrim which, if I'm reading the stuff correctly, has a chance for +1 Might and +1 Shooting Speed and seems to be the only crossbow comparable in damage. Cubragol is nice for the Speed bonus but doesn't seem to deal all that much in the way of damage (and I'm already at a base of +26 with Belthroding) and I dumped Umbar since at X6 and a single shot it didn't seem worth it compared with Belthronding.

Heavy xbows of the haradrim can't be created. The best crossbow will deal roughly the same damage as the best longbow (maybe a tad more as bolts do more base damage than arrows). Unless you're a ranger, in which case bows are almost always better. A +2 sling of buckland can sometimes compete with a good longbow, but it's easier to find a good longbow than a sling of buckland.

3. I always find Belthronding (not complaining, btw) and I don't think I've ever found Bard. The only times I've found Sting has been below L70. Are those two items (Bard, Sting) especially rare?

Belthronding and Bard should appear with exactly the same frequency. Chalk your experience up to an anomaly. Sting is creatable up to level 100.

[Derakon]

Crossbows do have a notable advantage -- their bolts are 10% less likely to break than arrows are (25% vs. 35%, IIRC). Heavy crossbows are also a guaranteed x4 multiplier when you'd have to find a Longbow of Extra Might to match that. Later on they aren't as good though because the good bows are more likely to outpower them. That said, a Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x6) can deal massive amounts of damage in only a few shots and is a worthwhile consideration for the endgame even if it's not an artifact and only shoots one shot/round.

[Oramin]

Hmm, let's take a quick look at the combos in my current game:

Sling of Buckland (X4) (+13, +14) <+3, +2> with
Mithril Shots of Holy Might (2d4) (+22, +19)

Does 725.1 vs Evil, 483.3 vs others

Belthronding (X3) (+20, +22) with
Mithril Arrows of Slay Evil (3d4) (+10, +10)

Does 414.8 vs Evil, 248.8 vs others

Cubragol (X3) (+10, +14) with
Seeker Bolts of Holy Might (4d5) (+13, +13)

Does 204.7 vs Evil, 122.8 vs others

Ok, so a Light Crossbow of the Haradrim (2 shots at X4) would probably get that up to about 500/rd vs Evil but would you really choose any other crossbow in the game for endgame target practice? Belthronding looks to be clearly superior to Umbar and you should generally not need the Speed bonus from Cubragol when you have endgame gear on.

Regarding Sting, in case it wasn't clear, I've found Sting in the 70 to 100 range. With the low (+X, +X) numbers, I would normally expect it to be dropping considerably earlier but I've found it less often than I've found Ringil.

[Derakon]

A Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x6) (+N, +20) with 1d5 (+N, +15) bolts would deal on average 8 * 37.5 = 300 damage/shot. That's pretty low on the enchantments, too == Extra Might tends to add pretty heavy to-dam. If we bumped that to (x6) (+N, +25) and Mithril Bolts 3d5 (+N, +20) then we see on average 8 * 47.5 = 400 damage/shot. Somewhere between 300-400 damage per shot seems to be about the top end you could expect from a crossbow, then.

Belthronding is getting a lot of its damage from the fact that it has extra shots, so you have to fire twice as much ammo to achieve that stated 415 damage. The Buckland sling has 3 shots/round making it even more ammo-thirsty.

So bottom line is, a given slay ammo will last you a lot longer with a crossbow than it will with a different launcher. The individual shots are more powerful, but you need more time to take them.