reduce artifact drop rate

[fizzix]

The game is too easy and therefore too boring. If I can't physically dive fast enough to keep myself at an interesting level, there's a problem.
There are two big culprits. One is that artifacts drop so commonly that you are likely to have every significant hole covered well before you need it. The other is that with the increased rates of the +1/-1 potions and the stat gain potions, you can have your stats maxed relatively quickly. The change in drop formula helps a bit, but it's been completely counteracted by the change in drop rates.

I don't care that there are useless artifacts, but finding 80 of them in 500k turns doesn't seem good. 35-40 is about right for that length, let egos fill the remaining slots. Egos are good enough. Too many artifacts are dropping, it ruins the idea that these are special items.

For stat gain, I would recommend backing off on the +1/-1 potions a big, maybe keep them the same rate but change the level to 20-30 or so. Stat gain potions should be rarer. To avoid tedium, make augmentation common and a dlevel 60 item. Or, leave augmentation as is and rare and bring back *augmentation* and make it common at dlevel 60. dlevel 60 because then Ancient dragons will drop it at dlevel 80.

The idea is to bring back some of the difficulty in the midgame, where if you're going to dive, you're going to do it without being able to handle most of the monsters you encounter. At the same point, if you want to scum for stat gain at dlevel 30-35 you should be able to. This is very helpful for newcomers.

Right now the game seems less fun than it has in a while. I guess that means it's time to start playing variants again.

[ewert]

I agree on too many artifacts. But is it just randart problem, or standarts too? Anyways, deffo too many randarts.

I agree on stat potions partly, and think +1/-1 needs to really be +1/-1 not current around "+3" at 18. As for levels, upping lower level to 20 is fine by me if the static +1/-1 is not done, if it is it won't matter that much to me personally. Since stat gain is a thing that some people will farm for at 30-35, I don't agree normal stat potions should be reduced, as it only increases tedium for them, whereas divers tend to dive whether they get some stats or not.

As for whether it is fun or not, well I like powerful chars and dislike tedium, so I don't feel too bad about current gameplay. Except that ego items are so overshadowed by the too early atleast appearance of too many artifacts... I don't mind if past level 80 artifacts were dime a dozen, but having many artifacts before going past stat-gain? Naah...

[fizzix]

I whereas divers tend to dive whether they get some stats or not.

The problem is that in my last game I wasn't able to physically dive fast enough before I had all the needed stats and resists. That's the problem. I could have done it with stair scumming or create stairs, but do we really want to encourage these? We could eliminate half of the dungeon levels I guess, but there's huge opposition to that.

[Magnate]

The problem is that in my last game I wasn't able to physically dive fast enough before I had all the needed stats and resists. That's the problem. I could have done it with stair scumming or create stairs, but do we really want to encourage these? We could eliminate half of the dungeon levels I guess, but there's huge opposition to that.

Artifact generation is merely a supplementary issue to ego-item generation, which is supplementary to magic item generation etc.

The real problem is that in an effort to solve TMJ, a far greater proportion of weapon and armour drops are {good} or {excellent} than was previously the case. Since you are probably squelching most of those before you're halfway through the game, it appears that the problem is related to artifacts, but it isn't.

If there is a consensus around this problem, it's definitely time to do a partial revert on the increase in ego items.

[fizzix]

Artifact generation is merely a supplementary issue to ego-item generation, which is supplementary to magic item generation etc.

The real problem is that in an effort to solve TMJ, a far greater proportion of weapon and armour drops are {good} or {excellent} than was previously the case. Since you are probably squelching most of those before you're halfway through the game, it appears that the problem is related to artifacts, but it isn't.

If there is a consensus around this problem, it's definitely time to do a partial revert on the increase in ego items.

I disagree. The problem is related to too many ego items getting changed to artifacts.

[Magnate]

I disagree. The problem is related to too many ego items getting changed to artifacts.

For that to be true, you would need to show that this has been changed. As far as I am aware, the chance of an ego item becoming an artifact has not been changed since 2.8.x or even earlier.

There is one other possibility, which is that randarts have become much much more common than standarts. For this to be the case, you would need to be confident that standarts are precisely as rare (relative to ego items) as they ever were, but randarts drop much more frequently. Is this what you're saying?

[zaimoni]

For that to be true, you would need to show that this has been changed. As far as I am aware, the chance of an ego item becoming an artifact has not been changed since 2.8.x or even earlier.

The OP isn't about ego/artifact ratio, it's about absolute artifact abundance.

The conversion to MAX(monster native depth, actual native depth) from averaging, unless reverted, will cause a faster standard-artifact generation rate in the early mid-game, in the absence of a compensating reduction in the ego to artifact conversion rate.

[d_m]

The OP isn't about ego/artifact ratio, it's about absolute artifact abundance.

The conversion to MAX(monster native depth, actual native depth) from averaging, unless reverted, will cause a faster standard-artifact generation rate in the early mid-game, in the absence of a compensating reduction in the ego to artifact conversion rate.

That has already been partially reverted. Currently, if the monster's depth is deeper, that is used, otherwise current depth and monster depth are averaged.

This is slightly more generous than a strict average, but only in the case where you are fighting a monster at a shallower depth than it's normally found on.

[zaimoni]

That has already been partially reverted. Currently, if the monster's depth is deeper, that is used, otherwise current depth and monster depth are averaged.

Ok (knew changes were planned, but didn't take the time to sift trac before replying).

[krugar]

Increase rate and someone will complain is to too easy. Decrease rate and someone will complain they are farming too much, instead of moving through the game. Finding the right balance is really not possible because it depends on the type of player, how they play and what they like to do. Some hate farming, others love it. Some like it hot, others prefer it easy.

Go either way and someone will complain. Since the topic is actually "the game is too easy", I always found the greatest solutions those which are created by the players. The game offers several classes and races combinations that can make for a difficult game. It also offers some interesting ironman options. And you can always create your own. But mostly the game doesn't force you to quaff a potion or use an artifact.

The frame of mind necessary to actually have the nerve to drop or sell a godly object you just found is, I admit, not easy to achieve. But once you do and start exercising that power when you see fit, you'll experience what I consider the one and true meaning of the term Advanced Gameplay.

I apologize if I sound overly conceited. I just find it frustrating as a game developer myself and a gamer for 30 years, that gamers insist in not seeing the incredible power they have to completely alter a game experience without the need to change one line of code in the original game. Instead they choose to request changes tailored to their specific needs, but that will affect everyone, no matter their background, experience or even natural ability to play the game.

[fizzix]

Increase rate and someone will complain is to too easy. Decrease rate and someone will complain they are farming too much, instead of moving through the game. Finding the right balance is really not possible because it depends on the type of player, how they play and what they like to do. Some hate farming, others love it. Some like it hot, others prefer it easy.

I actually thought the randart drop rate in 3.1.2v2 was about right. I played a standart game and was overwhelmed with all the artifacts I was finding, it was crazy.

I think several people pointed this out and the randart generation values were changed to be more in line with the standarts. However, I would've much preferred the standarts to be altered to be in line with the randarts.

The 'too easy' is an issue, but there's also a gameplay issue. If you look at a lot of my randart winners you will see 3-4 slots that are being filled with ego items. Some slots I never found any artifacts for that game. This is a good thing. With the current artifact drop rate, I'm bound to find lots of things that are better than all but the rarest ego items.

[Magnate]

The OP isn't about ego/artifact ratio, it's about absolute artifact abundance.

I thought so too, until the original poster wrote "the problem is too many ego items getting changed to artifacts" ...

[Magnate]

I actually thought the randart drop rate in 3.1.2v2 was about right. I played a standart game and was overwhelmed with all the artifacts I was finding, it was crazy.

I think several people pointed this out and the randart generation values were changed to be more in line with the standarts. However, I would've much preferred the standarts to be altered to be in line with the randarts.

Well, there are two separate issues here. First, I think randarts have to drop at the same rate as standarts. It's quite an important principle that randart games are as similar to standart games as possible.

Second, either type of artifact might be too common or not common enough. I am quite happy to accept that they are now both too common. That's why I was clarifying earlier the distinction between number of ego items dropped, and frequency of ego items turning into artifacts. You wrote "I disagree. The problem is too many ego items getting changed to artifacts", but then you go on to make your point above about too many standarts in 3.1.2v2. Since this cannot be about randart gen chances, and as I pointed out, ego-to-artifact conversion hasn't changed for a dozen years, I think your first statement must be wrong. The problem, as I said before, is that too many ego items are dropping. There are lots of ways to address this.

[ewert]

Personally my last games have felt like not enough ego / too much artifacts. That is considering the level the character is at. At low levels this leads to having artifacts often before useful ego's, which is sort of backasswards... At deep levels I don't feel there is a problem with current system that much, but it is pretty plentiful. I almost found all artifacts on one of my games I think (the one testing extra_homes).

A small decrease on item -> artifacts chances overall probably is in order, as it wasn't that long of a game/farm where I found almost all arts. 20% decrease in artifact creation? That would also increase ego's a bit right? So would tackle both sides, just keep it a slight "testing" amount of change.

[fizzix]

I thought so too, until the original poster wrote "the problem is too many ego items getting changed to artifacts" ...

It's about too many artifacts total. However, the amount of egos is not bad, so it can also be approached by changing how many ego items turn into artifacts. I understand that this is grandfathered in and there is reluctance to change it.

There is a very limited area between the early game and the mid game where the choice of useful weapons are very high. These include the slays and the branding weapons. Lately, I find a superior artifact before I find any of these weapons. Slay and branding weapons become solely a source of money. I think that about 75% of games you should be using one of these lesser egos at some point, even if it's only for 3 levels. Have other people noticed this also? Maybe my games were outliers.

Standart and randart generation rates should be the same. They should both be less.

As a side, there's no problem with special artifacts. I haven't found the palantir in several games, and that's a good thing in my mind.