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Yep, that's mostly what I think too, put in better words. 
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But the last priest book was never as powerful as the last mage book. It's just upgrades to a couple PB4 prayers and banishment and some stuff with damage/mana so poor and fail rate so high it's utterly pointless.One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to bind them.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness interrupt the movie.Comment
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False. The last priest book is a big game-changer, for two spells: Banish Evil and Word of Destruction. With those two, the priest can just ignore any fight he doesn't like the looks of, and can start playing really abusively with artifact hunting if he feels like it (Alter Reality => Clairvoyance => ooh, a vault => Word of Destruction => sort through remains). Most importantly, fighting Morgoth is significantly harder without them.Comment
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Derakon pointed out that PB9 is significantly more than an upgrade to PB4.
(And even there, PB9 dispell is a lot better than PB4 dispell.)
I would be surprised if anyone thought that PB9 is comparable to MB9 in total power.
Still, given 0-fail *Destruction* plus Banish Evil, mage-style Banishment spells are just lagniappe.Comment
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I think it is comparable, but not necessarily better. IMO Banish evil is better than mass banishment because it affects uniques and doesn't remove monsters, just teleport them away (to pick up later) and those dispels are very useful (lower manacost, higher damage). *destruction* makes it complete set. Priest just doesn't need those additional beam/ball spells mage last book has. Priest has OoD. Arguably mage doesn't need those either, with maybe exception of manastorm because rift and shockwave and many others are Raal's spells.
So in power they are quite similar. If you want to make them pretty much same give "annihilation" more targets and give it lower manacost and failure rate and maybe make it beam.
Annihilation description "inflicts 200 points of damage on a single monster that is not undead, a demon, an elemental, a golem, or a vortex.". That leaves...some uniques and dragons from major set? Not even major uniques with exception of Sauron and Morgoth, with manacost and failure way higher than OoD which makes about 171 points of damage at clvl 50 against evils.Comment
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@Antoine--
I can't help it, I just like that word! (Even though I've never been to New Orleans.)
I'm in good company--Mark Twain was a fan, too.
Edit:
For those unfamiliar with the term, Lagniappe is a generic term from the American South meaning baker's dozen: a little extra, thrown in gratis. It has a pure, made in America, etymology: Incan => American Spanish => American French => Southernese.Last edited by Pete Mack; August 18, 2010, 10:29.Comment
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I believe that the heart of Timo's post
He also talks about how for the most part things are not necessary.
To which there is the reply
We read the same post, and come to completely different interpretations. I interpret Timo's post as arguing things should not be shallow. Of course, he said nothing specificly either way, but we unconciously mold the statements to mean what we expect they should mean.
The gain-one-lose-one are made obsolete by the gain stat potions, so that's a maximum depth. That has nothing to do with minimum depth. Perhaps the max depth should be changed from 30 to 29.
DL 10 is way to early for these. How about 20 to 29?
On the plus side, swimming in so many, I found a bug in dec_stat.Comment
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Well yes, I am coming from the side that items that have uses should appear before such uses are obsolete, whereas you are coming from the side that stat gain should begin at dlvl30 (and thus statswaps before that in any not-rare frequency is something you feel should not be there).
20-30 (using 9s is unwieldy IMHO) if you think most people do levels 20 to 30 normally would be okay I think. I may be an outlier (probably am, as are you =P) so hard to judge. However, new item drop formula means 15-30 would probably be good (I'd go with 15-30).Comment
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The more I think about it, the more the 29 seems important. Otherwise, you set up an anomaly where people will want to spend time on DL 30 rather than 29 or 31, so that they get both types of potions on the floor. I initially said 20-30, but have changed my mind. Probably any maximum other than 100 should be x9, and 100 should be 127
, so none of the maxima should be a multiple of 10.
I kept quaffing them as I found them. They are not obsolete at DL 40, not until your primary stats are 18/100. You do not have to start them too early to make appear before they are obsolete.Comment
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Considering item drop formula has changed, it sure is splitting hairs but I guess you have a point no matter how you try to unmake it by saying the stat potions do not obsolete statswap potions, and thus the overlap of levels is not relevant.The more I think about it, the more the 29 seems important. Otherwise, you set up an anomaly where people will want to spend time on DL 30 rather than 29 or 31, so that they get both types of potions on the floor. I initially said 20-30, but have changed my mind. Probably any maximum other than 100 should be x9, and 100 should be 127, so none of the maxima should be a multiple of 10.
I kept quaffing them as I found them. They are not obsolete at DL 40, not until your primary stats are 18/100. You do not have to start them too early to make appear before they are obsolete. However, if stat gain/loss is fixed to +-10 after 18, it will devalue the statswap potions a lot because then they are effectively zero gain potions, at the moment they are gain some potions if the stat that gains is >18.
But as said, if people feel they are too powerful at current level ranges, of course considering change is in order. 20-30 or 15-30. But, how many potions are you finding pre dlvl20 anyways? I usually find maybe one, 2-3 tops, before I am in the proposed range anyways. And the value of those potions would be drastically reduced if we get rid of the non-linear statgain post-18.
So I'd vote change stat gain first, then lets see it again.Comment
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@ewert--
As you say, the assymetry in + vs - at >= 18 base stat makes stat swap a net win, especially if you hold them until your primary stats are at 18+. This means that you should clear troll and orc pits before dl 30. (I usually go the other way on this.)
Having positive value for the levels between 1000' and 1500' is a win all around, IMO,even if the value is deferred until after 1500'.Comment
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They are supposed to be break even. They are not supposed to start stat gain early except in that they slowly move points out of charisma into useful stats. Charisma potions used to start at 25. I don't know why that changed that to 15, but I guess if Charisma starts at 15 the gain1lose1 could too.
In my current game, diving like mad, I found and quaffed 4 by dl17 and I think I threw 1 !intellect away. Perhaps normal players will find more. There were another 2 for sale at the market I didn't buy. My last use this game was at DL37, !nimbleness for a priest, so I at least was willing to use 4 of the 5 that far into the game. A 1 in 3 chance to move a useless point to a useful point is worthwhile.
You don't appreciate the benefits. A pure spellcaster will be happy to get !intellect or !contemplation, depending on class, from a snaga at dl50. One !nimbleness means another blow 1 potion of dex sooner, and the blow after that also a !dex sooner.Comment
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Oh I certainly do appreciate the benefits, I have said that it even currently promotes 18/18 stat setup rather than 17/17/17 due to the uneven stat gain/loss (though it has ramifications at midgame a bit, it can give a massive boost very soon). And pure casters naturally love it.
Diving like mad and finding 4 sounds like an outlier to me. If I dive like mad, I find none id'd by 20 (scrolls, spell or rod of stair location work wonders), as usually I have both no id available yet and have a character that would be drastically challenged if he lost even 1 point in any unlucky stat. Heck, if I dive like "mad" I basically have nearly nothing by dlvl20, where I stop to get some semblance of dlvl30 valid gear ...Comment
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