Trolls and regen

[Derakon]

I think the problem with the tedium of hunger is more from the 'satisfy hunger' spell and that it's in all spell books.

No, that just makes hunger a non-issue for everyone except for warriors, since they'll be carrying the spellbooks that have the satisfy-hunger spell anyway.

It certainly is an issue in an ironman game, even more for an ironman warrior game.

But relevance in an ironman game is not a reason to keep a feature.

For beginners, (people that are just exploring the early levels of the dungeon to get their feet wet) hunger sets an upper bound in how long you remain in the dungeon before recalling, that in itself is enough of a reason to keep it in my mind. Hunger definitely had an impact in how I played when I started.

So, wait, hunger forcing you to return to town when you otherwise wouldn't is a good thing?

I would prefer if it didn't get removed. I'd also like if some monsters had an attack that drained satiation significantly, maybe like a salt water potion. And then I'd have satisfy hunger spell removed from most classes and the scrolls from the town. Food drops would be more common in the dungeon to compensate.

Basically what you're saying is "All classes must now devote an inventory slot to food." I don't think you can make a hunger-causing monster that's interesting to deal with -- either it can be countered easily by carrying food with you, or you run the risk of unfairly causing characters to starve to death because food was not available. At its most extreme you'd just end up with players having to avoid a group of monsters because they don't have enough food with them to deal with the threat -- and if you want players to avoid monsters, there's far easier ways to achieve that.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

Another reason to eliminate food, and therefore the whole food counter/hunger business, is it'll simplify the code. The objects list gets rid of at least 1 field, for example, as well as a few items. No more bothering with maintaining a food counter, no more bloated/weak/dizzy checks. No, it's not a lot, but it's a specialized, isolated functionality chunk. If there's no real value to the feature, and IMO no one's given a good argument in its favor so far...then it's helpful to just get rid of it.

[fizzix]

No, that just makes hunger a non-issue for everyone except for warriors, since they'll be carrying the spellbooks that have the satisfy-hunger spell anyway.

that's the point make it relevant to non-warriors too

But relevance in an ironman game is not a reason to keep a feature.

I agree that considering ironman should never be a sole motivation. But to ignore that hunger plays a very rich role in ironman games is silly. Surely something that plays a strong role in ironman can play a reduced but significant role in a normal game.

So, wait, hunger forcing you to return to town when you otherwise wouldn't is a good thing?

No, planning your trip to the dungeon, getting necessary supplies, figuring out how much and what to take is a good thing. Food is one of those items. You may not remember this because we all are so used to these mechanics. To us they're second nature and boring. But for a new player, food is a very easily understandable feature to the game.

Basically what you're saying is "All classes must now devote an inventory slot to food." I don't think you can make a hunger-causing monster that's interesting to deal with -- either it can be countered easily by carrying food with you, or you run the risk of unfairly causing characters to starve to death because food was not available. At its most extreme you'd just end up with players having to avoid a group of monsters because they don't have enough food with them to deal with the threat -- and if you want players to avoid monsters, there's far easier ways to achieve that.

I don't know if it's possible either. We already have effects for eat_food and dim_light and perhaps those could be more interesting. eat_food would be interesting in its own right if mushrooms were more common in the early levels.

I don't get why to remove hunger though. It's not broken. It's on the same level as worrying about lighting. Carrying extra torches is annoying, but I think we lose something by making all torches everburning. I wouldn't be opposed to slow_digestion being changed to sustain_hunger. So that your hunger bar doesn't change either when eating or drinking if you have that. So then hunger plays a role in the early levels, but is unimportant in the later game when it's more of a nuisance.

I just don't like getting rid of a feature that is simple and isn't broken. It's the same with jamming doors. I don't want to get rid of it, I just want it fixed so that it can be useful in some small set of circumstances. (close and jam a door in a single motion, for example)

[nullfame]

I don't get why to remove hunger though. It's not broken. It's on the same level as worrying about lighting.

I would be okay with getting rid of fuel too. By the time I run out of torches I have found a lantern. I prefer brightness over everburning because I can max fill in town and usually don't run out of fuel before I want to recall anyway (between finding fuel and compulsively lighting the dungeon).

For me the presence or absence of the food and fuel mechanics do not change the difficulty of the game so I see no risk or harm in removing them aside from that's the way it is always been. Easy for a heretic to say

I just don't like getting rid of a feature that is simple and isn't broken. It's the same with jamming doors.

IMO jamming doors is slightly different. You can squelch spikes at the beginning of the game and pretend the feature doesn't exist and the only result is you will hobble your ability to escape in the most minuscule of ways. If you squelch food you will die.

I carry spikes if I find them early until I need the slot. I think I've jammed a door once so I wouldn't miss it if it was gone.

[Derakon]

I just don't like getting rid of a feature that is simple and isn't broken.

A feature that doesn't add anything to the game is not a feature. It's just a meaningless ritual. Personally I play the game in search of meaningful tactical and strategic decisions, and food is just a "press A to not die" event that pops up every few thousand turns. It distracts from the parts of the game that are actually interesting, and therefore detracts from the overall gameplay in a small but significant way.

Obviously you feel differently about it, though.

[nullfame]

a "press A to not die" event that pops up every few thousand turns

Feature request.

[ewert]

I could go with slow digestion being sustain hunger status, then after you get it you can forget it...

Would suck if none of your randarts you are wearing gets it. =P

Then again, I'd vote to nix it totally ...

[Nick]

I have a fairly simple test: if a part of the game has resulted in an interesting experience/story, it should be kept. A few examples are hunger, light, hounds, inventory destruction; a non-example is inability to squelch.

Boredom and annoyance are never enough reason by themselves to remove something; in fact I usually regard them as reasons for keeping.

[ewert]

Well hunger has fainted me in battles more times than I can remember at end game when I just plow through things. And it has killed me by gorging me against Morgy just couple days ago. =P

Still, for all but warrior it just requires muscle memory to cast the spell at some point, so... It is very very very weak feature for most of the game (ie. annoying, tedium, not gamechanging), and only by utter boredom can it affect your char (I'd rather my chars die through my stupid mistake, not through my boredom). Granted, the gorged char was a stupid mistake, lol.

[kaypy]

Well hunger has fainted me in battles more times than I can remember at end game when I just plow through things.

The danger of starvation does tend to be more failing to notice being hungry more than actually running out of food. Which suggests at very least there are some interface issues that need addressing.

When I am not concerned with the purity of my save files I tend to hack the character display routine so that hunger changes the color like damage does.

[ekolis]

Maybe we need the "you are feeling hungry" messages to disturb the player?

[cinereaste]

Boredom and annoyance are never enough reason by themselves to remove something; in fact I usually regard them as reasons for keeping.

Wait, you like boring and annoying mechanics in your games?

[Nick]

Wait, you like boring and annoying mechanics in your games?

Angband is a long game. It can't all be fun.

[cinereaste]

Angband is a long game. It can't all be fun.

Art imitates life, eh?

[buzzkill]

Art imitates life, eh?

I think it's high time we add a wedding chapel to the town.