Idea's for a revised set of prayer books

[Pete Mack]

It makes a huge difference. +46 to_hit bonus corresponds to 138 internal to_hit vs opponent's AC. Since internal to_hit generally ranges from 150 (hobbit mage with +10 weapon and reasonable strength) to 400 (H-T warrior with 18/220 STR and +20 weapon), the actual improvement will be between 5% (75% => 80%) for the best fighters to 150% (25% => 61%) for the worst.

[ewert]

Also add 4.6% crit chance (IIRC), which if you are wielding a high dice heavy slay evil weapon is a pretty nice increase in damage as well.

[fyonn]

For all the comment that rejigging priest spells would make them more powerful, I still think that the counter of making priests unable to use pointy missiles without penalty would be fair, and possibly upping the penalty for using any pointy weapons. they perhaps we'll finally get some use out of all those slings I see lying around.

dave

PS. just found a sling of buckland mind.. nice!

[Nightmarjoo]

I'm surprised PowerDiver didn't say something about your proposed aggravate spell, like: "If you can cast aggravate and live, you're not diving quick enough"!

[fyonn]

I'm surprised PowerDiver didn't say something about your proposed aggravate spell, like: "If you can cast aggravate and live, you're not diving quick enough"!

tbh, I so rarely use aggravating weapons that I'd half forgotten quite how it worked. I guess what I really wanted was something which called monsters to you rather than hiding in the middle of rooms where they are dangerous to get to. but this might be giving priests too much advantage.

dave

SP. current guy now has gothmog, umar and haradrim (stored, not in regular use)... the RNG doesn't seem to want me to tiptoe quietly through the dungeon..

[PowerDiver]

I still think that the counter of making priests unable to use pointy missiles without penalty would be fair

Why does this idea have so much traction? I know of no source outside of D&D with even a hint at priests avoiding slicing.

There are plenty of proscriptions against peasants having weapons, particularly those that maim easily, and shedding the blood of a superior class might result in a death penalty, but that has nothing with priests fighting for the cause.

My [admittedly lacking] understanding is that the christian angels carry swords. If pointy is good enough for an angel, why not for a priest?

If anything, priests should be denied blunt weapons. The gods have been appeased by blood letting for millenia, and I'd call the people who do the sacrificial bloodletting priests [includes shamen etc]. The ultimate priestly weapon should be a sacrificial dagger.

[fyonn]

Why does this idea have so much traction? I know of no source outside of D&D with even a hint at priests avoiding slicing.

I can't answer that question, however it seems incongruent to me to penalise a a sword for being pointy, but not penalise using a sharp arrow or bolt.

would penalising missile use like this be a suitable nerf for priests? I must admit, I rarely use missiles as much as magic and melee, but maybe that's why I don't win as often

dave

[Derakon]

If you want to pull monsters in a room towards you, hit them with a ball spell. Heck, lighting the room up is often sufficient. It won't cause pack monsters to break their AI, but otherwise it works just fine.

[fyonn]

If you want to pull monsters in a room towards you, hit them with a ball spell. Heck, lighting the room up is often sufficient. It won't cause pack monsters to break their AI, but otherwise it works just fine.

it's the pack monsters that are a pain. I just had ancalagon the black and his friends surrounded by a pack of time hounds. I could pull the dragons out but dealing with the time hounds was tedious as much as anything else. still, it's hardly a big quibble point.

dave

[Tiburon Silverflame]

PD, the comment about human sacrifice/sacrificial dagger is actually fairly offensive, to different groups on different levels. Besides, it's NOT a 'weapon.' It's a ritual item, which is *entirely* different.

Unfortunately, the Angband priest *is* the D&D cleric. Off the top of my head, I can't think of many priest-heroes in fantasy literature that wasn't fundamentally D&D-derived. Real life provides little basis for comparison, because priests are rarely combatants. And there is a strong suggestion of "don't shed blood"...but that's got a different basis, and arguing that breaking your opponent's bones is an acceptable alternative, is absolute crap IMO. I'm re-reading Eddings' Malloreon right now; in there, Durnik (whose morality and personality are congruent to 'typical' priestly mindset) is wading into battle with a heavy club, rather than an axe. His comment is along the lines of: "I just don't like slicing into people. If I hit them with my club, there's a fair chance they won't die, and there isn't all that blood." This works for me...but that's because it's strictly on a personal scale, and because there *are* non-deaths in that world. In D&D or in Angband, it's always "kill the monster!" and we're not talking about personal choices, we're talking about enforced restrictions.

I really, REALLY dislike the weapon penalty as it is now. It's just incredibly *annoying* that 90% of even the *nice* stuff...I can't use. I find that I really don't like running priests because:

a) Hounds are vile

b) They're really painful to start...and even well into stat gain. Remember, OoD is 7 mana; it takes a while before that's affordable. I think PD made a comment about the explosive breeders...hey, I've *been* forced to back off even with OoD. I *couldn't* clear the lesser vault of the *&#@$ fruit flies...and I think I had regen. But only about 30ish mana, and the vault gave them way too many nooks.

c) As far as doing damage...they don't, after a while. Mid game, against the evil or undead, they're incredible. OoD rules. Later, tho, because its damage scales so poorly, it doesn't cut it. Fine, you can banish, if you find a copy of WoG...but that strikes me as a very cheesy approach. (To each his own.)

d) It takes tooooo damn long to get 2 spells that I really, really want: a short- to mid-range teleporter, and Identify. We've had the discussion on ID'ing stuff and all those issues, so I won't rehash that. But the first teleport spell you get, is a scaler...and sends you halfway across the level. That makes it unworkable for tactical use.

As for the style for a priest: paladins are the holy warriors. Priests should focus on spells to do damage. Fine, keep Bless unless you want a divine version of Magic Missile...but *don't* necessarily give all those other melee boosters. Let paladin have those; that's what he is. Give priest some interesting single-target damage spells. Rework or replace WoD.

[zaimoni]

Real life provides little basis for comparison, because priests are rarely combatants.

If you must restrict yourself to Christianity as a real-model for priests, I would think there were enough warlord Popes in the 1400's for an adequate start.

It gets much easier (but far more politically incorrect: "truth is an insult worthy of death" territory) if all religions (extant and extinct) are open.

[andrewdoull]

If anything, priests should be denied blunt weapons. The gods have been appeased by blood letting for millenia, and I'd call the people who do the sacrificial bloodletting priests [includes shamen etc]. The ultimate priestly weapon should be a sacrificial dagger.

Unangband only permits (normal) priests to wield blessed weapons. I did this on the basis that priest has traditionally been considered one of the easiest classes. Since Sacrificial Daggers are always blessed, they are particularly useful for priests.

It is possible to pick a blunt weapon speciality for a priest, which means that every blunt weapon is considered blessed. You then get the D&D blunt preference.

Andrew

[Tiburon Silverflame]

zaimoni: I said that they're rarely combatants...that is, soldiers. In large measure, that's because it's not their job to be doing that. I'm NOT trying to imply that they couldn't fight, and fight quite well thank you, should the need and circumstance arise.

[PowerDiver]

zaimoni: I said that they're rarely combatants...that is, soldiers. In large measure, that's because it's not their job to be doing that. I'm NOT trying to imply that they couldn't fight, and fight quite well thank you, should the need and circumstance arise.

We are only talking about combatants. The divinities [by which I mean whatever powers grant priests their spells] in the game only reward killing. Frighten a monster away or avoid it and you get nothing. The rewards are for kills. A priest in the game is someone who has chosen a quest he knows full well will require thousands of kills if he is to be successful. I imagine the divinities for this game would be at home in a _Mortal Combat_ scenario where they yell "Finish Him!" when one combatant has won a fight and has a helpless foe at his mercy.

The question is, among priests who choose to kill, is there any evidence that they would be squeamish about using weapons that slice open veins or disembowel.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

In the real world, you almost *can't* have a "blunt weapons only" limitation for anyone going into combat; such a limitation is tantamount to suicide. We *don't* have magic they can use to prove combat-effective.