Idea's for a revised set of prayer books

[Atarlost]

This talk about removing OoD seems a little extreme. We're not talking GoI here. Removing OoD pushes priests and paladins more towards bows and crossbows. I'd far rather see those fixed and brought down to the damage output of melee.

[bron]

I would be loath to remove OoD completely as it is an important aspect to how priestly characters play, plus the prayer has a long history going back to the Moria days. OTOH, I think that changing it to only work against evil monsters would have a nice "feel", without nerfing it too badly, since a great many of the monsters are evil, and OoD already only does half as much damage against non-evil creatures. I also think that removing it from *Paladins* would not be such a bad move, since I tend to think they are supposed to do damage with their (physical) weapons. I would compensate for this by putting the Heal prayer from book 4 into the Purifications and Healings book. This is the only really useful spell from book 4 for a paladin, and having it in (one copy of) an indestructable book would IMHO be useful enough to compensate. YMMV

I also don't really like removing Resist Heat and Cold without some sort of compensation. I find it to be a very useful spell indeed, since even with one layer of Resist these attacks can do as much as 533 damage. Resist Poison and/or Resist Nether fit more with the priestly theme I agree, but they aren't sufficient compensation. And some of the more far reaching changes to adjust for this sort of "element magic" seem more like variant territory.

As for the Bless/Chant/Prayer stuff: I sort of like the idea of having increasing effects, but the duration thing might be a problem. Right now whenever I use this sort of prayer, I only ever use the low level version because this is not the sort of thing you cast in the heat of battle, but rather something you do in the lull prior to the battle taking place (assuming there is one). In fact, if I'm not going for a low turn count, I tend to have my character cast this several hundred times while still in the town, and then go the entire trip down in the dungeon with this already in place (and ditto for Protection from Evil). So if there are going to be increasingly potent versions of it, I think the duration should be changed to be more like Speed (i.e. the first one lasts a long time, but subsequent casts only add a small time increment).

[Pete Mack]

I rarely use OoD against non-evil monsters anyway, unless they are just a nuisance (big crowd of nexus hounds gathered around a doorway).
I don't think this is particularly unbalancing, and I don't see howmaking priests more annoying (they have a hard time with hounds as it is) will improve the game.

[PowerDiver]

I also don't really like removing Resist Heat and Cold without some sort of compensation. I find it to be a very useful spell indeed,

The compensation is that you find egos and artifacts at least twice as fast as you used to. Another compensation is the massive boost in CLW. I could go on. Various compensations have already been provided. It's time to start repaying them.

You don't lose resist heat and resist cold. You just have to devote two slots to carrying potions the same way that a warrior does. If that's too onerous for a priest, perhaps it is too onerous for a warrior as well. One way to go halfway is to make the potions resist both fire and cold so it would only cost one slot.

[bron]

> The compensation is that you find egos and artifacts
> at least twice as fast as you used to.
But all classes do this, not just priests.

> Another compensation is the massive boost in CLW
This point I'll agree with. The changes to the way healing works gives a significant boost to priests.

> go halfway is to make the potions resist both fire and cold
Off-hand, that sounds like a very good idea. I almost never carry these things around due to consuming slots, but a single dual-use potion might be useful enough to devote a slot to.

[bron]

I find I don't really like the idea of giving priests a "Heroism" prayer. A timed Resist Fear maybe, but not the melee bonuses. However, I do like the idea of giving such a prayer to a paladin, as it seems to fit right in with their persona. So maybe take OoD away from paladins and give them Heroism instead?

[PowerDiver]

I find I don't really like the idea of giving priests a "Heroism" prayer. A timed Resist Fear maybe, but not the melee bonuses. However, I do like the idea of giving such a prayer to a paladin, as it seems to fit right in with their persona. So maybe take OoD away from paladins and give them Heroism instead?

Who is to say heroism should give attack bonuses? Perhaps it should be AC or nothing at all. Change the definition if that helps. OTOH, bless increases to-hit, so increasing to-hit seems to be considered priestly.

The essence of heroism is the ability to overcome fear. Anything else is icing. In the other thread, I suggested larger distinctions between heroism and berserk. I was thinking more of changing berserk to add to-dam rather than to-hit so it wouldn't help with bows, but it doesn't matter as long as they get differentiated more.

It feels to me that the word "heroism" fits better with priests vs mages, or paladins vs rogues, but I must admit that is just a feeling.

[fyonn]

As for the Bless/Chant/Prayer stuff: I sort of like the idea of having increasing effects, but the duration thing might be a problem. Right now whenever I use this sort of prayer, I only ever use the low level version because this is not the sort of thing you cast in the heat of battle, but rather something you do in the lull prior to the battle taking place (assuming there is one). In fact, if I'm not going for a low turn count, I tend to have my character cast this several hundred times while still in the town, and then go the entire trip down in the dungeon with this already in place (and ditto for Protection from Evil). So if there are going to be increasingly potent versions of it, I think the duration should be changed to be more like Speed (i.e. the first one lasts a long time, but subsequent casts only add a small time increment).

bless and protection from evil stack?! why did I not know this?

dave

[bron]

bless and protection from evil stack?!

I believe that everything except speed stacks. IIRC the max is usually 10,000 turns (100,000 impulses), although I'd need to check the source to be sure.

So for example if you are a mage and haven't found something of Resist Poison but have found the Resistances dungeon spell book, you could cast Resist Poison on yourself a hundred times before you WoR (having Regen helps since you need to be able to recove the SP faster than the spell wears off).

[Derakon]

Spells with different effects stack, in that you can have them both running at the same time. Durations on recasting the same spell also currently stack (though apparently not with speed effects). Protection from Evil is a spell that gives you a chance to repel melee attacks from evil creatures; Bless increases your to-hit rating. They're different effects, ergo you can have them both running at the same time.

For that matter, you can be blessed, heroic, and berserk all at the same time.

[fyonn]

Spells with different effects stack, in that you can have them both running at the same time. Durations on recasting the same spell also currently stack (though apparently not with speed effects). Protection from Evil is a spell that gives you a chance to repel melee attacks from evil creatures; Bless increases your to-hit rating. They're different effects, ergo you can have them both running at the same time.

For that matter, you can be blessed, heroic, and berserk all at the same time.

oh, I knew you could use all these different spells with each other. I didn't know that you could cast it a hundred times in town and have it active for ages...

dave

[fyonn]

I would be loath to remove OoD completely as it is an important aspect to how priestly characters play, plus the prayer has a long history going back to the Moria days. OTOH, I think that changing it to only work against evil monsters would have a nice "feel", without nerfing it too badly, since a great many of the monsters are evil, and OoD already only does half as much damage against non-evil creatures.

I don't think it should have no effect against non-evil creatures as how else does a priest clear up explosive breeders? perhaps if the evil/non-evil damage ratio was changed to perhaps 3:1 or somesuch?

dave

[Derakon]

Priests can deal with breeders the same way warriors deal with 'em. Get 'em early, use wands, or avoid 'em.

We shouldn't assume that every class should have an answer for every scenario, after all.

[miyazaki]

Priests can deal with breeders the same way warriors deal with 'em. Get 'em early, use wands, or avoid 'em.

We shouldn't assume that every class should have an answer for every scenario, after all.

Maybe priests shouldn't be able to melee any non-evil creatures as well. Full of goodness, can't harm an innocent creature, all that jazz. Give them a sleep natural creatures spell and they can tiptoe away...

[bron]

you can be blessed, heroic, and berserk all at the same time.

I try to do exactly this when I face Morgoth, assuming I have the inventory slots available. I don't know exactly how much difference it really makes, but it feels like the right thing, and that extra +41 to hit can't be bad.