Future of Vanilla?

[fizzix]

I think d_m very well summed up how I think of V. I think V is a great example of how to make a tremendously varied game experience with a very limited set of functions. Or at least that should be its approach. Therefore, I'm opposed to changes that add a ton of monsters or items into the game, but very much support ones that tweak the existing monsters or items to make each game more interesting.

Similarly, the changes I'd be most excited about are ones that improve a current dynamic rather than create a new one. For example, modifying ESP is good while adding new terrain would be not so good. Similarly, I'd have no problems changing spells that are unused, but would balk at adding another 50 onto the current list.

Lastly, ToME has a huge world with lots of items and creatures, however, it has a sharp learning curve and a set plot line. Vanilla has no plot and a comparatively easy learning curve. You can view vanilla as a gateway into other variants and I wouldn't argue with you on the point.

[Nick]

The one thing many variants can lag behind in are the docs. When I'm browsing the help files and see the version is below what I'm currently playing and, in some cases, were written for Vanilla Angband, it can be a little frustrating.

FA help is pretty much up to date, although there will need to be an ID-by-use update. Thanks for the reminder.

[SilverD]

FA help is pretty much up to date, although there will need to be an ID-by-use update. Thanks for the reminder.

Yea, I checked it out yesterday and was quite surprised by how much it is similar to V feature and UI-wise, as opposed to ToME , et al. But.. No item list for terms, is that intentional?

I will definitely be checking it out in depth, though.

[dhegler]

Then again, not everyone can or has the will to do that, and making suggestions and feature requests and proposing ideas is also something good. A maintainer may see this and add it to V thinking it's a great way to help the game along, or perhaps a developer of a variant will see it and make the change in their version.

I'll cut this short before I ramble on more, but the actual point of the post is that V is V, and variants are variants. Features that don't take away from the 'spirit' of V are great to add, while others would make it lean towards something else like ToME or Hellband or FA (not that those aren't great, they just aren't V ).

I think there are A LOT of people out there like myself who does not have enough programming background to edit the game as they wish, or the time. I know my time spent playing roguelikes is typically to fill in a half hour or an hour of the day that I can, because life is too busy to get into 3d shooters, etc. I *wish* I had the time to edit monsters, items, etc, but at least for me, life catches up with you after college, then gets pretty busy once to get married and have kids! Kudos to those of you who have wives who actually play the game with you!!!

[dhegler]

Similarly, the changes I'd be most excited about are ones that improve a current dynamic rather than create a new one. For example, modifying ESP is good while adding new terrain would be not so good. Similarly, I'd have no problems changing spells that are unused, but would balk at adding another 50 onto the current list.

Lastly, ToME has a huge world with lots of items and creatures, however, it has a sharp learning curve and a set plot line. Vanilla has no plot and a comparatively easy learning curve. You can view vanilla as a gateway into other variants and I wouldn't argue with you on the point.

I don't understand why some colored and varied terrain wouldn't help V. We're all getting older and I would guess most of us grew up playing roguelikes. Younger kids would wonder why they want to play this game. I'm not asking for Dwarf Fortress type terrain and colors either! I did try to download that once and that was just insane.

[Nick]

No item list for terms, is that intentional?

Yes, I guess I should pinch that. V is hard to keep up with these days...

[Derakon]

I don't understand why some colored and varied terrain wouldn't help V. We're all getting older and I would guess most of us grew up playing roguelikes. Younger kids would wonder why they want to play this game. I'm not asking for Dwarf Fortress type terrain and colors either! I did try to download that once and that was just insane.

Making terrain that is varied, has an interesting and appropriate effect on gameplay, and doesn't visually distract is harder than you might think. Here's some personal reasons why ToME-style terrain doesn't work well:

* Too many terrain types are also permanent damage fields, which makes walking on them terrible for your inventory until you get immunities.
* Ice is a permanent confusion effect unless you have levitation (but, oddly enough, flight doesn't help). No matter what, it still deals its damage effect -- does getting cut and stunned by a floor make sense?
* Any non-bolt fire spell can generate magma floor; any non-bolt cold spell can generate icy floor; etc.
* Some spell combinations can generate (undiggable) glass walls ab initio, rendering the game unplayable if done in the wrong place.
* Most other wall types amount to standard walls that are easy to dig through.

If I were to keep any of ToME's terrain effects, they'd be:
* Shallow water, forming streams that cut through the dungeon walls, and
* Glass walls, with the caveat that they be made diggable.

All the other terrain effects in ToME seems more annoying than anything else.

[fizzix]

All the other terrain effects in ToME seems more annoying than anything else.

I think you pretty much summarized my opposition to the standard terrain. However, I do have an idea for a 'terrain' improvement to V that I don't think is present in any current incarnation. Namely this would be terrain that informs the player about the level or nearby monsters but otherwise has no effect on gameplay.

Monsters with elemental effects would leave their mark on some amount of floor tiles that are nearby to them (or they pass through if they are awake and moving)

Additionally a player who is searching or perceptive (i.e. ranger) would be able to pick up the footprints/slimeprints of various monsters that are nearby or have passed through.

Basically, among the major changes I'd like to V, they would lie in adding additional weaker detection abilities like searching the dungeon for clues and sound (see DJA for an early attempt at sound that works better than you might think) and then weaken/move the current standard detection spells.

Adding terrain features that adjust tactics seem like they don't quite belong, but ymmv.

[takkaria]

Making terrain that is varied, has an interesting and appropriate effect on gameplay, and doesn't visually distract is harder than you might think. Here's some personal reasons why ToME-style terrain doesn't work well:

* Too many terrain types are also permanent damage fields, which makes walking on them terrible for your inventory until you get immunities.
* Ice is a permanent confusion effect unless you have levitation (but, oddly enough, flight doesn't help). No matter what, it still deals its damage effect -- does getting cut and stunned by a floor make sense?
* Any non-bolt fire spell can generate magma floor; any non-bolt cold spell can generate icy floor; etc.
* Some spell combinations can generate (undiggable) glass walls ab initio, rendering the game unplayable if done in the wrong place.
* Most other wall types amount to standard walls that are easy to dig through.

If I were to keep any of ToME's terrain effects, they'd be:
* Shallow water, forming streams that cut through the dungeon walls, and
* Glass walls, with the caveat that they be made diggable.

All the other terrain effects in ToME seems more annoying than anything else.

I don't see why V shouldn't have shallow water and glass walls sound quite cool, but I'm not sure the latter fits V that well.

[PowerDiver]

* Ice is a permanent confusion effect unless you have levitation (but, oddly enough, flight doesn't help). No matter what, it still deals its damage effect -- does getting cut and stunned by a floor make sense?

Anyone who has seen _The Transporter_ knows that the answer is to wear toeclips, the most awesome fighting footgear imaginable.

[dhegler]

I don't see why V shouldn't have shallow water and glass walls sound quite cool, but I'm not sure the latter fits V that well.

Just those two additions would make the game much more varied (or at least seem that way to the player). The glass walls are pretty neat in ToME. The water effect and water-based monsters are rather cool as well.

I agree that the magma/lava is annoying, but maybe you don't have it hurt your inventory, just your HP. It took me about 20 burned scrolls to realize that since I was worshipping Melkor I could (p)ray and get fire immunity. You don't need to keep everything. The icy floor would be interesting if it affected monsters the same way. Could be effective against the confusion-resistant ones, possibly helping you escape melee-based nasties.

Even just random green grass/plants would be neat, maybe give them a .1% chance of producing a mushroom or something.

[Magnate]

I think you pretty much summarized my opposition to the standard terrain. However, I do have an idea for a 'terrain' improvement to V that I don't think is present in any current incarnation. Namely this would be terrain that informs the player about the level or nearby monsters but otherwise has no effect on gameplay.

Monsters with elemental effects would leave their mark on some amount of floor tiles that are nearby to them (or they pass through if they are awake and moving)

Additionally a player who is searching or perceptive (i.e. ranger) would be able to pick up the footprints/slimeprints of various monsters that are nearby or have passed through.

Dragon poo! My idea! Mine! Mine!

[dhegler]

Dragon poo! My idea! Mine! Mine!

Do you wish to pick up 'Soft Leather Boots of Dragon Poo (3, +10)'?

Description: Monsters generally try to avoid this pair of leather boots at all costs. It activates for Stinking Cloud every 10d10 turns for 48 damage.

[fizzix]

Anyone who has seen _The Transporter_ knows that the answer is to wear toeclips, the most awesome fighting footgear imaginable.

Crampons of Stability?

[Nick]

One of my reasons to choose O as the base for my variant was the terrain, which seemed right - a few more types than V, but carefully thought out and used sparingly. I tend to find the sheer quantity of types in Un/NPP and ToME a bit overwhelming. I would suggest O/FA as a good place to start terrain-shopping if that's going to happen, and I'd suggest introducing one at a time - and the shallow water thing sounds like a good idea.