Playing with new class titles for the game

**ewert** · April 17, 2022, 05:49

Don't really care, but my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Skyknight

WARRIOR
--Mercenary
--Soldier
--Commando
--Veteran
--Armsmaster (it's not like the class favors swords to begin with...)
--Myrmidon
--Commando
--Champion
--General (out of place?)
--Hero

Commando doesn't fit (rangerish) and also it is there twice. Maybe swap soldier and mercenary IMHO. Maybe Champion, Hero, Legend could be the last ones. Take out general. Still missing replacements for the two commandos.

MAGE
--Magician
--Invoker
--Evoker
--Enchanter
--Exponent (as in someone who expounds--in this case, ideas about magic)
--Sage
--Arcanist
--Thaumaturge
--Sorcerer
--Magus

Novice? Neophyte? Magician is already too bad-ass a name for level 1. Exponent nah, doesn't transtlate well. Sage should be higher, like 2nd highest maybe. Evoker higher than Enchanter.

DRUID
--Scion (it means both "heir"--like heir to druidic teachings, hopefully--and "branch")
--Animist
--Soothsayer
--Elementalist
--Warden
--Shaman
--Mystic
--Geomancer
--Stormwielder
--Mystagogue (someone who teaches about mystical ideas)

Scion should be much higher, it is a sole top person of a branch, not the starter druid. Elementalist between warden/shaman. Druids are not mystics their are naturalistic, so need a new one. Archdruid is the lame ass clutch replacement, like Magus is the head of magic.

PRIEST
--Novitiate
--Acolyte
--Diviner (mostly for the etymology)
--Priest
--Oracle
--Templar (the original etymology/meaning is temple-er--someone who cares for a temple)
--Exorcist
--Ritualist
--Prophet
--Hierophant (one who teaches about rituals. Similar to "mystagogue", but I felt the mystic/sacred distinction merited a divide.)

Templars are associated usually with fighting and thus more paladin to me. Otherwise maybe Ritualist lower than Exorcist. But cant say much otherwise.

NECROMANCER (Who doesn't do much divination with--actual necromancer--or weaponizing of--necrourge--the dead, oddly. Rename to Warlock?)
--Initiate
--Defiler
--Warlock
--Tombcaller (I know, I know, the previous parenthesis speaks otherwise...)
--Spellbinder
--Oppressor
--Conjurer
--Doombringer
--Nightbearer
--Archon (with an eye to its use in Gnosticism. The archons--or rather, archontes theoi/ruling gods--were the animalistic and cruel true creators of the physical/hylic world, as opposed to the original, virtuous gods, the aeons of the Pleroma.)

Initiate just doesn't say necromancer to me at all. Cultist? Warlock higher. Conjurer is a magic dude not necro. Archon I think most people would definitely find the aspects of good tied to the word and I would not go for it. Nightbearer is meh. Doombringer is a blackguard to me. This is tricky and definitely needs much revisions to me.

PALADIN
--Squire
--Protector
--Defender
--Sentinel
--Knight
--Warder
--Guardian
--Avenger
--Paladin
--Justiciar

Order all whacked out. Like, Knight is a basic one and all the "named" starting from Protector to Guardian are just "named" Knights IMHO. So maybe like Squire, Knight, Warder, Protector, Defender, Guardian, Sentinel. So it is like order of strenght of "protecting" in the naming, with the more pro-active forms being more badass. Sentinel protects by seeking out the threats far and wide, Guardian nearby, Defender can Defend a point/person, Protector tries to, Warder tries to ward of evil ... The top three are ... hard to say what order they should be in. Personally I would say Justiciar (declare evil), Avenger (avenge evil) and Paladin (the ultimate virtue).

ROGUE
--Cutpurse
--Varlet (should these first two be swapped?)
--Thief
--Ransacker
--Burglar
--Infiltrator
--Rogue
--Trickster
--Darkrunner
--Nightcloak

Varlet is also used for "paladinish" stuff by its other meaning, I would use Rascal as the first instead. Cutpurse is more daring than a thief, so thief 2nd cutpurse 3rd. Rogue before Infiltrator. Two last are meh.

RANGER
--Archer
--Strider
--Scout
--Outrider
--Harbinger (same etymology as "harbor", actually; a scout specially tasked with finding lodging for other soldiers)
--Tracker
--Hunter
--Explorer
--Ranger
--Ranger Knight (I wish I had found a better alternative...)

Commando fits here.

Order is all whacked out. Harbinger connotations (not the one you mentioned), nope doesn't do it for me. I think would help if you planned all of the different classes with a mindmap first, and at least 3 connotations overall. So for Ranger it would be Archer/Woodsman/Ranger, and then you divide the progression to words meaning the different archetypes of differing powers. So like Archer, Outrider, Scout into Tracker, Hunter, Explorer, Strider and then combining to final outcomes of Rangerish stuff encompassing both the abilities of archery and woodscraft.

Similar idea should be used for the other classes. "Is this name encompassing x, strength y?" while filling out the progression.

BLACKGUARD
--Bravo
--Reaver
--Enforcer
--Slayer
--Brigand
--Berserker
--Marauder
--Black Knight
--Shadow Knight
--Conqueror

Thoughts on whether they're good/justified for the game?

Bravo has no evil connotations to me, you bigot! Just joking on the bigot part, not on the evil part.

Okay so again, think of Evil or definitely not good melee/Uncontrolled fighting/Blackguard magic. So Enforcer, Brigand, Reaver, Slayer, Marauder, Berserker, Black Knight, Shadow Knight ... and something else than Conqueror for the end IMHO ...

My 3 cents (was more than 2).

**Skyknight** · April 17, 2022, 16:09

Originally posted by ewert

Commando doesn't fit (rangerish) and also it is there twice. Maybe swap soldier and mercenary IMHO. Maybe Champion, Hero, Legend could be the last ones. Take out general. Still missing replacements for the two commandos.

Granted Commando was in the Warrior titles already; that's probably how I missed the repeat while trying to come up with a proper cadence. Yet Commando doesn't feel like an intrinsic "wild" fighter to me. I'm also not sure I want "legend" to have an only-warriors-deserve-to-be-known-this-way patina. >>;

Novice? Neophyte? Magician is already too bad-ass a name for level 1.

Well, I had "Magus" (the original Persian term) right at the end. It did strike me as a bit funny at first that I had two very similar titles at opposite ends of the list, to be fair. But "Magician" by itself doesn't strike me as particularly majestic by itself. Probably association with stage magicians. But probably Neophyte instead.

Scion should be much higher, it is a sole top person of a branch, not the starter druid. Elementalist between warden/shaman. Druids are not mystics their are naturalistic, so need a new one. Archdruid is the lame ass clutch replacement, like Magus is the head of magic.

I'll admit Scion hit me for a new druid for the second definition I found at dictionary.com: "a shoot or twig, especially one cut for grafting or planting; a cutting". A new branch for the druidic "tree", as it were. (The first one was just "descendant".) Association with mysticism is probably courtesy SAngband's titles (e.g. Mystic Knight when you have enough combined levels in nature magic and battle skills).

Initiate just doesn't say necromancer to me at all. Cultist? Warlock higher. Conjurer is a magic dude not necro. Archon I think most people would definitely find the aspects of good tied to the word and I would not go for it. Nightbearer is meh. Doombringer is a blackguard to me. This is tricky and definitely needs much revisions to me.

Have to start the path of malice somewhere. "Initiate" is meant to be deceivingly innocuous. "Conjurer", meanwhile, actually refers to someone who binds spirits (demonic included) to their will; the root term is the Latin conjūrāre, essentially meaning to bind two entities together in an oath. While "exorcist" has much the same meaning (the Hellenic exorkízein this time, even though I wonder if the "ex" means abolishing an oath), they seem to be considered antonymic. (Despite a few grimoires which refer to the conjurer as an exorcist.) Not Cultist, though; I don't think Necromancers/Warlocks worship anyone.

Order all whacked out. Like, Knight is a basic one and all the "named" starting from Protector to Guardian are just "named" Knights IMHO. So maybe like Squire, Knight, Warder, Protector, Defender, Guardian, Sentinel. So it is like order of strenght of "protecting" in the naming, with the more pro-active forms being more badass. Sentinel protects by seeking out the threats far and wide, Guardian nearby, Defender can Defend a point/person, Protector tries to, Warder tries to ward of evil ... The top three are ... hard to say what order they should be in. Personally I would say Justiciar (declare evil), Avenger (avenge evil) and Paladin (the ultimate virtue).

There was enough dead reckoning on my part for the order. Paladin and Justiciar are at the top because they're actually both high government titles--Paladin is Frankish (from the Latin palātīnus), Justiciar English. I got the impression that you only ever have one Justiciar at a time, as opposed to Charlemagne's twelve Paladins, so Justiciar got a bit higher.

Commando fits here.

Order is all whacked out. Harbinger connotations (not the one you mentioned), nope doesn't do it for me. I think would help if you planned all of the different classes with a mindmap first, and at least 3 connotations overall. So for Ranger it would be Archer/Woodsman/Ranger, and then you divide the progression to words meaning the different archetypes of differing powers. So like Archer, Outrider, Scout into Tracker, Hunter, Explorer, Strider and then combining to final outcomes of Rangerish stuff encompassing both the abilities of archery and woodscraft.

I'll admit I was uncertain about Harbinger for being not quite the right sort of scout (not particularly combat-oriented, now that I think about it), although modern connotations sound better fit by just Herald or such.

Similar idea should be used for the other classes. "Is this name encompassing x, strength y?" while filling out the progression.

That's what I was trying to do, actually...Too much emphasis on original etymology?

Bravo has no evil connotations to me, you bigot! Just joking on the bigot part, not on the evil part.

Okay so again, think of Evil or definitely not good melee/Uncontrolled fighting/Blackguard magic. So Enforcer, Brigand, Reaver, Slayer, Marauder, Berserker, Black Knight, Shadow Knight ... and something else than Conqueror for the end IMHO ...

Ha, Conqueror is as far from "good" as it gets for me. As for Bravo, dictionary.com strikes again: "A daring bandit, assassin, or murderer, especially one hired to steal or murder for another". And amusingly because I didn't know it the first time, it turns out that "brave" comes from the Latin barbarus--"barbarian".

**Djabanete** · April 18, 2022, 05:13

Where might one find the current V class titles, for comparison?

D&D titles here:

Level title

https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Level_title#Original_D.26D_Titles

A level title is a system whereby each level of a character class is given a special name. It is usually associated with earlier editions of Dungeons & Dragons. Level titles first appeared in the original D&D game in Men & Magic (1974). In that edition, each character class had a different name for each level, rather than simply a number. For example, a first-level magic-user is known as a Medium. At each subsequent level they become known as a Seer, Conjurer, Theurgist, Thaumaturgist...

>>> Scion should be much higher, it is a sole top person of a branch
That doesn't match any definition I've heard of.

Definition of SCION

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scion

descendant, child; especially : a descendant of a wealthy, aristocratic, or influential family; heir; a detached living portion of a plant (such as a bud or shoot) joined to a stock in grafting and usually supplying solely aerial parts to a graft… See the full definition

**Saru** · April 18, 2022, 05:51

[Angband]\lib\gamedata\class.txt

If I am not mistaken. Search for "title:" (without quotes) in the file.

**ewert** · April 19, 2022, 08:42

Originally posted by Skyknight

Granted Commando was in the Warrior titles already; that's probably how I missed the repeat while trying to come up with a proper cadence. Yet Commando doesn't feel like an intrinsic "wild" fighter to me. I'm also not sure I want "legend" to have an only-warriors-deserve-to-be-known-this-way patina. >>;

My thought on the commando is more about the subterfuge/infiltration aspect which doesn't fit into the warrior and fits better into ranger. Yeah I have no good answer for the top title...

Well, I had "Magus" (the original Persian term) right at the end. It did strike me as a bit funny at first that I had two very similar titles at opposite ends of the list, to be fair. But "Magician" by itself doesn't strike me as particularly majestic by itself. Probably association with stage magicians. But probably Neophyte instead.

To me it is just that magician is already someone competent with basic magic. IE. not a neophyte learning basic stuff.

I'll admit Scion hit me for a new druid for the second definition I found at dictionary.com: "a shoot or twig, especially one cut for grafting or planting; a cutting". A new branch for the druidic "tree", as it were. (The first one was just "descendant".) Association with mysticism is probably courtesy SAngband's titles (e.g. Mystic Knight when you have enough combined levels in nature magic and battle skills).

Ah, alternative meaning, I was thinking more in the lines of familial heir meaning of the word. As I said, I was just throwing my 2 cents on how they felt to me as words, I did not research the words that much.

This version of scion would sound good as a starter, but is this meaning the one most people know of or the heir of a family line (which is a singular position)? Works with your meaning definitely.

Have to start the path of malice somewhere. "Initiate" is meant to be deceivingly innocuous. "Conjurer", meanwhile, actually refers to someone who binds spirits (demonic included) to their will; the root term is the Latin conjūrāre, essentially meaning to bind two entities together in an oath. While "exorcist" has much the same meaning (the Hellenic exorkízein this time, even though I wonder if the "ex" means abolishing an oath), they seem to be considered antonymic. (Despite a few grimoires which refer to the conjurer as an exorcist.) Not Cultist, though; I don't think Necromancers/Warlocks worship anyone.

Hmm the connotation with conjurer to me is more someone who conjures things up out of nothing (magician), which I think is the more commonplace meaning understood nowadays with D&D influence. Do you want archaic or modern parlance understood titles?

To me being able to make something non-exist is stronger than making it exist (as things tend to try to remain existent) thus exorcist is a stronger one.

What is the mythology of necromancy in Tolkien lore, I am not sure. Was the Shadows of War LOTR game necromancer in anyway lore accurate? Definitely cultish system that one.

There was enough dead reckoning on my part for the order. Paladin and Justiciar are at the top because they're actually both high government titles--Paladin is Frankish (from the Latin palātīnus), Justiciar English. I got the impression that you only ever have one Justiciar at a time, as opposed to Charlemagne's twelve Paladins, so Justiciar got a bit higher.

Hmm. To me it is more about law vs virtue in their order. Or heck, have Paragon as the final title?

That's what I was trying to do, actually...Too much emphasis on original etymology?

Probably, old framing vs. modern connotations thing I reckon. Do you want it accessible or archaic ... I would vote for accessible.

Ha, Conqueror is as far from "good" as it gets for me. As for Bravo, dictionary.com strikes again: "A daring bandit, assassin, or murderer, especially one hired to steal or murder for another". And amusingly because I didn't know it the first time, it turns out that "brave" comes from the Latin barbarus--"barbarian".

Yeah I noticed today driving home that I mixed the two words into one, my bad. Don't ask why a random post on the internet pops in my head a day later.

Conqueror is to me mostly a descriptive neutral term of actions done rather than defining the person as evil. There are a lot of words that have the evil connotation and rulership, ie. tyrant. It just doesn't do it to me for blackguard, they are not by definition generals/rulers in my head.

**Djabanete** · April 20, 2022, 19:32

Originally posted by Skyknight

I also wanted to avoid using masculine titles for anyone (like me) who'd rather imagine the player-character to be female.

This is actually a tricky assignment. The expression of gender in language is truly complicated. I tried my hand at my own solution to your assignment and ended up with all sorts of questions, like:

Is Priest a masculine title because Priestess is also a word? (Maybe it's gender-neutral, since in modern-day organized religions that allow women to be priests, I believe the term priest is used in all cases.)

Are Enchanter and Sorceror masculine titles because Enchantress and Sorceress are words?

Is Warlord a masculine title because it includes -lord? Is Guildmaster a masculine title because it includes -master? Is Armsmaster a masculine title because it includes -master? At my martial arts school, everyone over a certain rank is called a Master, regardless of their gender. Maybe Master is gender-neutral?

Is Wizard a masculine title? It certainly makes me think of a man. Specifically, Gandalf. But coward and sluggard are gender-neutral, and they're formed the same way.

The fully woke option might be to allow players to select between (A) gender-neutral titles, (B) feminine titles, and (C) masculine titles. Lists A, B, and C would have a good deal of overlap. Things like Priest, Sorceror, and Enchanter might go in lists A and C, while Priestess, Sorceress, and Enchantress would populate list B. Warlord would exist only in list C, while War Leader would be its replacement in lists A and B. I'd still be unsure about Wizard. Unlike J.K. Rowling, I don't think Witch is an equivalent feminine title if one takes Wizard as masculine.

Of course, one could avoid every term that raises the is-this-masculine question and just choose things that are 100% gender-neutral, but it's hard to populate a rich list of Priest/Necro/Druid/Mage titles while avoiding mainstays like Priest, Wizard, Enchanter, Sorceror. You could make the lists, but they'd be shorter. (You could also go all-in on made-up words like Spellweaver or whatever, but I've never been partial to the words that sound too much like a game designer's thesaurus had run dry).

**Ingwe Ingweron** · April 20, 2022, 22:21

Myrmidon seems out of place as it is Greek. Is @ a soldier under command of Achilles?

What is a Thaumaturge?

**Djabanete** · April 21, 2022, 00:13

According to MW,
Thaumaturge = Thaumaturgist = Worker of miracles / Magician

Definition of THAUMATURGE

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thaumaturge

thaumaturgist… See the full definition

**ewert** · April 21, 2022, 09:12

Honestly by this point I would be fine with calling it a level 1 Paladin ...

*eyeroll*

But to each their own strokes.

**Pete Mack** · April 21, 2022, 16:23

For necromancer,
Haruspex
Hex-maker
Sorteligus
Diabolist

**Djabanete** · April 21, 2022, 18:59

My own attempt below. I followed Skyknight's idea of making all titles gender-neutral, but I believe this version is even more strict; for example, I've used Cleric instead of Priest. I also avoided words not found in a dictionary.

Blackguard doesn't actually mean anything close to "evil paladin," so I prefer Marauder or Nemesis, but I suppose I'm in the minority there.

+ CLERIC + (instead of Priest)
Acolyte
Scribe
Chaplain
Cleric
Healer
Seer
Diviner
Oracle
Prophet

+ DRUID +
Naturalist
Disciple
Sage
Ascetic
Soothsayer
Shaman
Druid
Hierophant
Great Druid

+ MAGE +
Apprentice
Scholar
Alchemist
Illusionist
Conjuror
Thaumaturge
Mage
High Mage

+ MARAUDER + (instead of Blackguard)
Hellion
Brigand
Raider
Skirmisher
Marauder
Reaver
Slayer
Vanquisher
Oppressor
Nemesis
Arch Nemesis

+ NECROMANCER +
Initiate
Augur
Haruspex
Ritualist
Medium
Occultist
Warlock
Necromancer

+ PALADIN +
Warden
Guardian
Sentinel
Protector
Defender
Knight
Avenger
Paladin
Arbiter
Justiciar
High Paladin

+ RANGER +
Scout
Pathfinder
Tracker
Hunter
Sharpshooter
Ranger
Elite Ranger
Ranger Captain

+ ROGUE +
Burglar
Trickster
Thief
Rogue
Treasure Hunter
Expert Treasure Hunter
Infiltrator
Ringleader
Guild Leader
Mastermind

+ WARRIOR +
Fighter
Soldier
Warrior
Elite Warrior
Swashbuckler
Lieutenant
Captain
Marshal
War Leader
Champion
High Champion

**Skyknight** · April 21, 2022, 19:06

Originally posted by ewert

Honestly by this point I would be fine with calling it a level 1 Paladin ...

*eyeroll*

But to each their own strokes.

I thought of that, actually, although I can see people wanting titles as additional fluff.

But the titles we have are in large part from AD&D 1e: https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Level_title

(I know. Lama in the titles of a very European-mold cleric class? Hmph.)

**m0stlym0nk** · April 24, 2022, 17:26

I would also be on the side that says the less lines of non-important text present, the better. There's always a wealth of things that can be useful to show the player. A fluff title doesn't strike me as one of them, when it comes to the main screen.

**Nick** · April 24, 2022, 22:04

I wouldn't care overly if we ditched the titles altogether.

Playing with new class titles for the game

Playing with new class titles for the game

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