Mage OP

[Sky]

guys, realistically, there is no way to nerf MBan.

back 30 years ago, when people were playing on horribad 800x600 monitors in 45hz flicker and ASCII, MBan would even occasionaly kill a few high-enough mages through the damage-per-mob-removed mechanic.

But today .. in the world of high pixel count monitors, of game forums and game guides, there's just no nerfing MBan.

Just remove it and replace it with Banish Evil. (the priest spell, which teleports away but does not remove from the level)
Even then it would still clear vaults like nobody's business.
(because really, aside from a few case-specific scenarios, there's nothing MBan does that you can't do yourself with TO, just slower - i clear that big-ass empty no-walls vault with a troll + 2 rods of TO)




i still think that my initial suggestion is currently the most valid, as these spells are un-nerfable, the only solution is to limit the max number of spells a mage knows. Heckin'doodle heck, even D&D has this mechanic.

[mrfy]

guys, realistically, there is no way to nerf MBan.

I agree, and we shouldn't try.

Just remove it and replace it with Banish Evil. (the priest spell, which teleports away but does not remove from the level)
Even then it would still clear vaults like nobody's business.
(because really, aside from a few case-specific scenarios, there's nothing MBan does that you can't do yourself with TO, just slower - i clear that big-ass empty no-walls vault with a troll + 2 rods of TO)

Mages don't care about evil. Banish Evil should be a priest spell, and mages should get Banish and Mass Banishment.

i still think that my initial suggestion is currently the most valid, as these spells are un-nerfable, the only solution is to limit the max number of spells a mage knows. Heckin'doodle heck, even D&D has this mechanic.

No, no, no. Lots of spells and mechanisms can be abused. Personally, I choose to limit my use of Banishment, Mass Banishment, along with Destruction scrolls & staves, unless my character is in truly dire straits.

I still disagree that mages are OP, especially when faced with all of the uniques and other high level monsters we find in 4.2.2.

[ewert]

I still disagree that mages are OP, especially when faced with all of the uniques and other high level monsters we find in 4.2.2.

I think I already mentioned in this thread, but dmg/round of warriors/rangers is just so much more than mages that I don't see a problem.

Mages are OP janitors. I rather kill mobs.

[Saru]

Saving throw and spell power

It's always felt strange the way the concept of contested spells in Angband worked to me, and the banishment situation sort of feels flawed in a similar way. Monsters being deleted without a chance, now that is and always will be a tool that's troublesome to balance around. Tangentially things like sleep confusion and holding suffer from the related issue of being too weak to be useful... Heck, even player saving throw is sort of silly. Being a percentage with no consideration for whether it is Morgoth himself or a novice mage makes no sense.

Some sort of comprehensive and consistent system for these contested spells would need to be devised which is quite the challenge admittedly without an enormous amount of work so this is all probably just idle speculation anyway...

Coming back to banishment and such though, if a sensible saving system were to be made it would be a natural fit for those spells while maintaining both their purpose and powerful nature, while actually having downsides as well. Not really a new idea even either, variants have taken their own spin at this sort of implementation.

Probably none of this is that useful but who knows, maybe. Cheers and thanks for the game.

[archolewa]

The problem with saving throw for Bamishment is that it massively nerfs those rare, precious scrolls, and does nothing to weaken the spell (since mages can just spam it until everyone is banished anyway).

So you end up weakening everyone *except* mages, and making endgame mages even more tedious.

[Saru]

The nerf can be easily universal if monsters that save once save against all attempts against them thereafter.

[Ancient Yeek]

I just thought of a funny nerf to Banishment.

All banished monsters get sent to a preserved floor called Floor X.

If a monster sends you far far away... You get sent to Floor X!

[m0stlym0nk]

Sounds like this topic has already settled, but I had a few thoughts I thought I'd toss in for posterity.

Create Doors:
My inclination is to touch this the least, as I've always felt it's one of the coolest, most dynamic features in the game. New players think "what's the freakin point of this strange spell?!?". But, over time they come to realize the power of LoS controls! Super cool!

Mild nerf idea: limit the number of created doors that can exist to 8. Old ones get deleted as needed when new doors are created (in order of creation).
Description text: "Summons up to eight magical doors around the player. A total of eight doors may exist at one time."

New stuff created by this:

• Concept of player created, vs dungeon-based, doors

• Running count of current instances of player created doors

• Door age / creation order, for deleting-in-order as new ones are created

The Banishments:
Banishments are kind of out-of-game. Sit somewhere safe and type on your keyboard: out in the darkness, enemies are getting deleted. You aren't really interacting with the game - it's all remote play, so to speak, as if you are a drone operating a factory from a remote control center idly sipping your coffee. So, perhaps make the two banishments more dynamic, risky, and pump up the "engage with the level" aspect more. Make these spells more focused and action packed!

The ideas below are also intended to not be easily solvable by just resting or bringing more X with me to the dungeon (ie, they don't just make things cost more, or cost X for which I need to carry restore-X's to bypass). The current HP penalties can persist.


Banishment:
Make Banishment a targeted attack spell (ie, it is cast at range on an enemy in line of sight, unifying it's operation to e.g. tele-other).
Description text: "When cast at an enemy, all non-unique enemies of that type will be banished from the level."

Want to banish all L's on a floor? You need to put the work in to find one and safely get in LoS so you can target it to banish it and its brethren!


Mass Banishment:
Make this chewier, more varied, and more room-based by switching this to being targeted, and effecting all the enemies that can see your target: you are turning your target into a big ol' arcane flashbang grenade of banishment.
Description text: "When cast at an enemy, the targeted enemy, and every enemy that can see it, will be banished from the level."


For both Banishment and Mass Banishment, an elaboration to make it spicier would be to do a LoS check on enemies that can see those who are banished, but not the "target" enemy: these enemies could be woken up/aggro'd etc.


Dimension Door:
I had an idea I like here, but it's a bit of a problematic one-off, with UX problems. I'll note it nonetheless:
Idea: The spell is two parter: first cast places a destination door/"magical destination beacon". Second cast lets you then teleport to that placed destination.

You can see the problem: would need a prompt-on-cast when a destination has been placed, so the player can specify if they want to 1) teleport to the beacon/placed destination or 2) move the destination to where they are currently standing. Further, you might want a preview-peek at where your destination beacon is, in case you forgot. Another UI hurdle. And, how would your placed beacon be depicted in the level? It can't be blocking, so enemies can stand on it. Etc etc

I like this in general because it taps into that fun "gotta set my stuff up in perpetration for a big fight I am planning" part of Angband. But the UX issue makes it a bit clunky (what do y'all think?).

Another quick idea that came to mind (that is also quite clunky) is that tele destinations are created on level gen, one per sector. So, you wouldn't have max control over where you go, just "broad area" control. But, this then creates a UI need of a one-off preview mode that operates with the "shift-L" look mode, so you could scroll around and find the blinking square you want to use. Clunky.

[Nick]

Banishment:
Make Banishment a targeted attack spell (ie, it is cast at range on an enemy in line of sight, unifying it's operation to e.g. tele-other).
Description text: "When cast at an enemy, all non-unique enemies of that type will be banished from the level."

Want to banish all L's on a floor? You need to put the work in to find one and safely get in LoS so you can target it to banish it and its brethren!

I like this idea. What do others think?

[will_asher]

I like this idea. What do others think?

I like the sound of it too. But my opinion on this probably shouldn't count, cause I rarely play mage and I very rarely get past around dL45.

[Hounded]

I think it could work. Sure, you can't automatically Banish Z and L but it also means you'll always be casting it with cause.

[mrfy]

I like this idea. What do others think?

Just the mage spell? I'm ok with that. I wouldn't change the scroll or staff though, let them be usable as they are now.

[m0stlym0nk]

Just the mage spell? I'm ok with that. I wouldn't change the scroll or staff though, let them be usable as they are now.

What downsides do you envision if the scrolls etc etc also operated in the above way?

One could make an argument that keeping it consistent throughout the game has a "cleanliness" benefit, and that given that everyone is burlier than a mage, other classes are in a better state to have to get their line-of-sight on with a target compared to a weenie ol' mage. What's your take on that line of reasoning?

[mrfy]

What downsides do you envision if the scrolls etc etc also operated in the above way?

One could make an argument that keeping it consistent throughout the game has a "cleanliness" benefit, and that given that everyone is burlier than a mage, other classes are in a better state to have to get their line-of-sight on with a target compared to a weenie ol' mage. What's your take on that line of reasoning?

It would then affect all classes and not just Mages. Mages have these more powerful spells for a reason. I would still argue that Mages are not OP, and need all the power they can get to deal with pits of Ainur, big "D" Demons, great Wyrms, Archliches, Black Reavers, Aether Hounds, etc.

But if you're going to nerf the mage spell, fine. I get that it can be abused, but personally I try not to abuse it too often, as it makes the game boring. I don't go anywhere without some form of detection, so I know when I'm going to run into the bad monster. Just leave the finite ability of the scrolls and staves, please.

[Selkie]

I like this idea. What do others think?

I also like it. It feels really cheesy arriving on a level and just auto banishing "Z" every time. I just can't help myself