Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[HallucinationMushroom]

You could just make a male and female of every possible race and house, name them FeanorM, FeanorF, etc... and just load them up over and over again. Should you get one you want to post, you can always change their name. Low-fi solution, engage.

[Bodhi]

I don't like that new characters default to female. I'm sure I'm insecure in my masculinity but I prefer playing male heros in these sorts of games. I suspect most roguelike players (who are factually male) feel the same. Why not default to the most common choice, as would happen with any other design decision throughout the game?

I know, I'm whining. Just like a girl. But the frequent deaths and frequent rebuilds lend themselves to lots of character creations and you have to remember to stop at the right point in character creation to flip the default female to male. It's not so much the extra keystrokes as it is the intentional design decision that bothers me. I've totally rethunk gender roles in society. Thanks for the politics.

I would say that you're spot on about being insecure

[BlueFish]

I would say that you're spot on about being insecure

What I suspect I'm spot on about is that some people love feeling righteous, because it gives them free reign to do what they secretly enjoy doing - angrily attacking other people.

[Nick]

Apologies to debo and everyone else sick of the subject for this; I promise one post only.

What I suspect I'm spot on about is that some people love feeling righteous, because it gives them free reign to do what they secretly enjoy doing - angrily attacking other people.

This thread is for things you don't like about Sil. You identified one, and that's fine.

The problem as I see it is that in doing so you

1. acted as if there had already been considerable discussion on this, and you were sick of everyone picking on you over it;
2. said some things about gender which some people found genuinely upsetting and offensive and
3. came across during the whole process as a whiny entitled brat.

As I said above, that's it from me. Just please keep in mind that we mainly play pretty nice on this forum, and try to post accordingly.

[BlueFish]

Apologies to debo and everyone else sick of the subject for this; I promise one post only.



This thread is for things you don't like about Sil. You identified one, and that's fine.

The problem as I see it is that in doing so you[*]acted as if there had already been considerable discussion on this, and you were sick of everyone picking on you over it;

Cite? There are clear and predictable social norms around these sorts of discussions; I predicted those and was proven correct. I said nothing about whether this had ever been discussed here.

][*]said some things about gender which some people found genuinely upsetting and offensive and

Um, cite?

[*]came across during the whole process as a whiny entitled brat.

And you're the good guy, along with Derakon and whats his name. I get it. You rarely insult people, unless they deserve it. And I clearly deserve it. But you're above it, so you won't defend or substantiate your insult.

I predicted all of this. We had a decent discussion the night I posted my point. You guys have succeeded in ruining it. By being the good guys.

I don't expect you to see the irony.

As I said above, that's it from me. Just please keep in mind that we mainly play pretty nice on this forum, and try to post accordingly.

You too, Nick.

[Bodhi]

I obviously don't post often. But saying that "I'm whining. Just like a girl." is offensive to me. And I felt compelled to post because it seemed so out of place on a message board about Angband and its variants

[BlueFish]

I obviously don't post often. But saying that "I'm whining. Just like a girl." is offensive to me. And I felt compelled to post because it seemed so out of place on message board about Angband and its variants

I was trying to defuse that obvious and absurd rejoinder. I see you went with the other obvious and absurd rejoinder I intentionally planted in my initial post, about how someone with a preference for which gender they role-play in a roguelike, must be inherently insecure. I'm sorry you didn't understand my intent, and I'm sorry for not making it more clear.

Actually, I've played females before, for archers, but I've been playing exclusively brawlers, where I play males. I've also done the ladder math about which gender is most popular, in Sil and other variants.

I haven't counted, but I'm pretty sure that male heroes are more common in Tolkien than females. Since Sil intends to be thematic, this would seem to be a point in favor of defaulting gender to Male. Though of course females played very important heroic roles as well. The short sword of Galadriel is one of my favorite weapons in the game!

It's really just a minor interface issue that could be solved in any number of ways. It's just that mashing "enter" at that point in character creation is so easy, and it's easy to skip that selection. If you do, and if the default wasn't what you wanted, you have to start all over.

[Bodhi]

I was trying to defuse that obvious and absurd rejoinder. I see you went with the other obvious and absurd rejoinder I intentionally planted in my initial post, about how someone with a preference for which gender they role-play in a roguelike, must be inherently insecure. I'm sorry you didn't understand my intent, and I'm sorry for not making it more clear.

I'm glad that you've apologized. It was just strange to see someone say something that was clearly offensive and then act as if they were the ones being persecuted

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I was slightly offended because Bluefish seemed to imply that having politics (= your values) affect game design choices or forum discussion arguments is somehow bad. I'm a feminist. I guess that affects my game design sensibilities too, in subtle ways, and I think that's good.

That said, the female/male choice in Sil was probably not at all a "political" decision originally, it was just the alphabetical order, but Bluefish turned it into politics. That's somehow very funny, and I guess that's why people are still commenting.

[half]

I tried to ignore this ridiculous discussion, but it is both derailing a great thread and filling it with unpleasant comments. This makes the Sil community less welcoming for others and this is something that I care about.

For all those people who think that BlueFish is wrong about this (which appears to be everyone) he won't be able to post on this issue anymore if no-one replies to his comments. He has said his piece.

BlueFish: I don't think that your suggestion really deserves a response, especially given the hostile way you phrased it. So I will not offer one. Yes, I've read all of your points. You don't need to repeat or expand on them. I'm still happy you enjoy the game though, and will respond to other issues you have with it.

[BlueFish]

I tried to ignore this ridiculous discussion, but it is both derailing a great thread and filling it with unpleasant comments. This makes the Sil community less welcoming for others and this is something that I care about.

For all those people who think that BlueFish is wrong about this (which appears to be everyone) .

Wrong about what, specifically, half? I know you're above answering these questions, but: That male is the most common choice? That a default that doesn't correspond with the most common choice is odd? That in this specific context, where the default is easy to accidentally accept, one must start over with character creation they may have spent the last 15 minutes pondering? (Granted, re-do takes less time if you remember what you did.)

You can be dismissive as you please. You're above insults so if you want to be insulting that's what you have left. I get it.

It is pure fantasy to think I could have presented this in any way that it wouldn't have been dismissed, and in which I would not have been made fun of.

[BlueFish]

I was slightly offended because Bluefish seemed to imply that having politics (= your values) affect game design choices or forum discussion arguments is somehow bad. I'm a feminist. I guess that affects my game design sensibilities too, in subtle ways, and I think that's good.

I respect that you're able to admit that politics can affect game design in subtle ways. And that you're proud of it, if it affects your own designs.

That said, the female/male choice in Sil was probably not at all a "political" decision originally, it was just the alphabetical order, but Bluefish turned it into politics. That's somehow very funny, and I guess that's why people are still commenting.

I've been playing CRPGs for decades. Where defaults exist for PCs, they're male. I know, that's a symptom of the problem, a problem that needs fixing. But fixing it is an intentional choice, and a political one.

It's not as if politics around this issue are new. There's a reason that males and females have identical stats. They didn't, always.

[Bodhi]

To get back on topic, it can be difficult to figure out what builds are effective for a new comer without extensive trial and error.

Few people are going to read through the 30 page Sil topic, but many people might be interested in what kind of builds can allow them to explore the first few levels of the dungeon

This could be a design choice, but I think that the game would be much more accessible if a new comer could see how some successful characters were built without really delving into the forum or HOF.

[Derakon]

Perhaps the game could have some built-in builds? So when you go to allocate experience, there'd be a "melee fighter", "ranged", "singer", etc. option to auto-allocate, or you could go off the rails and figure things out yourself. The builtin options would be reasonably competent but unimaginative, and of course not necessarily applicable to your immediate circumstances.

The simplest way to handle it would be to have a list of choices for each build (e.g. "take 1 point of stealth, then 1 point of melee, then...", and to only allow using the build recommendations as long as you stayed on the rails. Simple and stupid and easy to implement.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

How about picking some of your favorite heroes from Tolkien and show what choices they made in the manual? "Aragorn's Path", for example.

You could call these examples Iconics like in D&D's third edition.