Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[T-Mick]

Perhaps if Lore-Master wasn't instant. Like the pseudo ID in Angband, but more exact. That way, it would have the same overall effect, but not be so amazing that every player takes it.

[debo]

I'd like to say in response to people complaining about Lore-Master that it's only the existence of Lore-Master that keeps me from listing "the ID minigame" among my least liked features of Sil.

+428000

I don't see any need to change this. If you like the ID game, play it. If you don't, eat the few thousand XP you need to spend in order to avoid it.

I should have listed the design decision to put loremaster in the game high up in my list of things I love about Sil.

I absolutely hate the id game in pretty much every roguelike I've ever played, and while Sil does it very well it's just not something I would ever be entertained by.

[clouded]

If you don't, eat the few thousand XP you need to spend in order to avoid it.

Well, I think the issue here is that there is a legitimate thought that you should always take lore-master when you can to *gain* XP.

[debo]

Well, I think the issue here is that there is a legitimate thought that you should always take lore-master when you can to *gain* XP.

If that's the case, I'm just being dense -- because I can't see how the math would ever really work out in your favor in the long run by taking loremaster if you're actually good at the ID game.

I guess in cases where there's a vault full of stuff where you're too scared to enter -- a loremaster character would get the XP for seeing everything, whereas a non-loremaster guy would have to run without being able to id them?

[taptap]

If that's the case, I'm just being dense -- because I can't see how the math would ever really work out in your favor in the long run by taking loremaster if you're actually good at the ID game.

I guess in cases where there's a vault full of stuff where you're too scared to enter -- a loremaster character would get the XP for seeing everything, whereas a non-loremaster guy would have to run without being able to id them?

I try to play the ID game, because I like the other perception abilities, but if you don't find a staff you need to carry sanctity staffs (if you have enough of them) with you. If you recognize bad stuff by exclusion (orc doesn't pick it up, herb lying under a wright tends to be bad as well, weapon/armor IDable by weight/visible modifiers) - you don't get the XP. It doesn't help you that as player you might know exactly what it is. The same goes for self knowledge identified items. If you burned your sanctity staff you just don't pick up potentially dangerous items -> no XP. Sustaining only artifacts are hard to ID by use - you would need to carry them around quite a long time and in unpleasant situations (I usually wouldn't risk drain on the off chance I have IDable sustaining item) to ever realize what they are. Not daring to pick up things in certain rooms is quite common whenever I try a stealthy character... Of course you can take curse breaking or only lore keeper - but having to buy the halfway ability somehow defeats the purpose of saving in that department. You also quaff/chew a lot of useful consumables in the process either just by testing them, by using them to undo damage inflicted by testing, or due to failed tests (voice potions, restoration herbs), run out of baggage slots earlier and you might miss crucial knowledge on dangerous enemies before the first engagement - how high exactly is that cat assassins perception?

[clouded]

These are very good points. Lore master isn't simply ignoring the ID game, it gives you quite a large number of advantages.

[locus]

Maybe increasing the drop rate for Staves of Understanding could help implicitly nerf Lore-Master? AFAICT Lore-Master, Staff of Understanding, or Smithing are the only ways to ID an Amulet of Adornment.

[fph]

If you recognize bad stuff by exclusion (orc doesn't pick it up, herb lying under a wright tends to be bad as well, weapon/armor IDable by weight/visible modifiers) - you don't get the XP.

I didn't know about the "orc doesn't pick it up" and "herb lying under a wright tends to be bad" methods of ID. All of this is taking a very Nethack-ish spin (for those who don't know: in Nethack, id'ing is mostly done by checking the outcome of a zillion of hard-coded side effects, such as using gems to engrave, dipping in potions, interacting with monsters, and so on. Typically, players figure out about most of these tricks using spoilers, since many of them are really crazy stuff).

[Psi]

That Mithril makes enchanting easier is also not that well explained in-game.

I never knew that! How does it make enchanting easier?

[fph]

Not daring to pick up things in certain rooms is quite common whenever I try a stealthy character...

Let me add one point to your excellent list of subtle things in which Loremaster gives you an edge: risk-taking. If you see an un-ID'd amulet in a vault close to a red D, you are tempted to try and run for it (either killing the dragon or using stealth). If you knew from the beginning that it's a constitution<-1>, you'd spare the risk.

[Psi]

I never knew that! How does it make enchanting easier?

Anyone...?

[taptap]

Anyone...?

Wow... never thought I have news for the player who made so many winning smithing chars.

Afair: You start at a higher difficulty, but the difficulty increase per enchantment is less than with normal metal, so for really complicated artifacts you end up with lower difficulty.

P.S. Turns out this was all wrong. Misunderstanding resulting from taking Mitril Corslet as base and comparing to equal stats non-Mithril item.

[Psi]

Wow... never thought I have news for the player who made so many winning smithing chars.

Afair: You start at a higher difficulty, but the difficulty increase per enchantment is less than with normal metal, so for really complicated artifacts you end up with lower difficulty.

Fascinating - thanks for the info.

[Scatha]

Afair: You start at a higher difficulty, but the difficulty increase per enchantment is less than with normal metal, so for really complicated artifacts you end up with lower difficulty.

I don't think there's anything so explicit (like there is for crowns, robes, and sceptres). But mithril items do have better base stats than regular items. The difficulty is higher, but only around as much as it would cost to get that bonus on a fine item regularly (I think normally about a point less, but I can't remember). If you try to stack that particular bonus -- for instance you want a sword with high accuracy -- then the increasing costs for the same kind of bonus mean that you're noticeably better beginning with a mithril base.

Is that what you meant?

[taptap]

I don't think there's anything so explicit (like there is for crowns, robes, and sceptres). But mithril items do have better base stats than regular items. The difficulty is higher, but only around as much as it would cost to get that bonus on a fine item regularly (I think normally about a point less, but I can't remember). If you try to stack that particular bonus -- for instance you want a sword with high accuracy -- then the increasing costs for the same kind of bonus mean that you're noticeably better beginning with a mithril base.

Is that what you meant?

I believe I was looking up high end armor with a certain set of enchantments (sustain most stats, 1-2 resistances) and stats (low penalties) both in mithril and normal once and recognized the mithril one being a few points less difficult. I have no way to check it now.

If this isn't true, I apologize and would like to register this as an idea