Sil : Suggestions

[locus]

Funny thing: when your evasion is negative, enemy archers still halve it, which increases it.

I guess if something isn't moving it's easier to hit it with a stick than an arrow?

[BlueFish]

I guess if something isn't moving it's easier to hit it with a stick than an arrow?

Ha. Fair point!

[Patashu]

Is it actually confirmed that 0 evasion in Sil represents something physically meaningful? (Contrast for example the Fahrenheit temperature scale, where 0F is meaningless)

[Scatha]

The natural interpretation of 0 evasion (indeed 0 of any skill) is it's how good a typical unskilled human is.

I think we've found an alternate meaning, though: 0 evasion is a target which is as hard to hit with an arrow as with a stick.

More clearly defined is -5 evasion, which is not moving.

[BlueFish]

More clearly defined is -5 evasion, which is not moving.

Some of my dwarves would take that very personally.

[BlueFish]

Just had a unique situation in my playing history. Really good start with my smithing Dwarf, found 4 forges I think through 450 feet. Also found Shield of Fingolfin, the perfect shield for my build and very fun (high prot and Con bonus). Tooling around 450 I got trapped in a north/south corridor between surprising numbers of Wargs, along with Orthrod the Orc Lord, his minions, and, eventually, a Giant. (After dying I discovered that the Greaves I'd just picked up were treacherous Paths.) To the north was everything but 4 of the Wargs. To the south were those 4 Wargs, all lined up in 4 tiles of the hallway. I had little to nothing identified at the time, but eventually found Quickness and Healing amidst my potions and was barely pulling through, with judicious swapping of my long swords of Gondolin and Doriath. I also had a Horn of Terror, which I was carrying along only because I hadn't had a reason to drop it after getting the 100 xp for identifying it 50 turns ago or so. Those 4 Wargs to the south were lined up so perfect and there was nothing else there between me and freedom. I blasted those low-will suckers and.... affected 2 of the 4. Sigh.

It sure would be nice if horns had some potential use in extremely rare game situations. So perfect it would have been if that horn with its beam effect that can only be used once per 30 turns or so had cleared out those Wargs. Horns are all theory and no practice at this point and they really should be improved.

[locus]

Yeah, I was doing the math on the Horn of Thunder the other day and it's really bad. You have to:

1. find the item
2. save an inventory slot for the item
3. spend a turn
4. pass a will check to be able to sound a note
5. spend 20(!) voice
6. beat the enemy's will check with your own

all in order to get an effect that amounts to +2 to your skills for 2-4 turns. Horn of Terror requires that they not have enough morale to just tank the hit, which they will if you really need it. Horn of Force is an even more marginal effect than Thunder. Horn of Blasting is somewhere between convenient and lifesaving, but the other horns desperately need some doublings and halvings to be useful.

[taptap]

Horns are all theory and no practice at this point and they really should be improved.

What will did you have? In what shape were you? Morale effects can not be deployed efficiently when already heavily injured, which is perfectly sensible if you think about it. Slaying weapons do affect morale (even of bystanders of the same letter) with each hit and it should be not that difficult to put Wargs to flight between Doriath and Terror. Playing around with channeling I found horn of terror very reliable nonetheless, although expensive, the suggestion that channeling will in future reduce the horn cost to 10 voice has already been made and may make it to 1.3 if I understand scatha correctly.

Imo, people did not explore the morale aspect of the game as much as they did other aspects. The comments on the horns are way too much in isolation, we wouldn't talk that way about weapons. "A standard deathblade doesn't even make more damage compared to one-handed spears and is only marginally better in other respects. Quite useless frankly." (Yeah, until you get subtlety.) So why talk about horns without mentioning skill and the plethora of available will boosts on items and via channeling and song of staying - which would fit into bluefishs builds nicely btw - abilities?

[half]

Yeah, I was doing the math on the Horn of Thunder the other day and it's really bad. You have to:

1. find the item
2. save an inventory slot for the item
3. spend a turn
4. pass a will check to be able to sound a note
5. spend 20(!) voice
6. beat the enemy's will check with your own

This is a great point. Particularly that for all horns except Blasting and Warning you need to pass two Will checks. This is pretty unnecessary for an item type that people already mostly ignore. The only problem with completely removing the Will check needed to blow the horn in the first place is Blasting, which would then have no limitation and it is already a generally good item. My current thinking is to halve the voice cost and to remove that first check for everything except Blasting. It is possible that some of the Will checks could do with some bonuses, or that the durations (or amount of fear applied) could be increased, though that would take more thought.

You can add to that list: make a loud noise, attracting a lot of attention.

[Infinitum]

Would it be possible to have walls/floors/ceilings/rubble have Will scores instead? Would allow for some extra uniformity in how horns work (and would also make it harder to Jericho through a solid stone wall than a pile of rubble).

[debo]

Horn of rockets pls

[half]

Would it be possible to have walls/floors/ceilings/rubble have Will scores instead? Would allow for some extra uniformity in how horns work (and would also make it harder to Jericho through a solid stone wall than a pile of rubble).

Yes, this does sound better.

[debo]

"the very walls of this place exert their malevolent will upon you"

[wobbly]

What will did you have? In what shape were you? Morale effects can not be deployed efficiently when already heavily injured, which is perfectly sensible if you think about it. Slaying weapons do affect morale (even of bystanders of the same letter) with each hit and it should be not that difficult to put Wargs to flight between Doriath and Terror. Playing around with channeling I found horn of terror very reliable nonetheless, although expensive, the suggestion that channeling will in future reduce the horn cost to 10 voice has already been made and may make it to 1.3 if I understand scatha correctly.

Provided the wargs are all lined up in a row, besides if you have a Doriath weapon it's not hard to make wargs flee without a horn of terror. Yeah I've had horns of terror work, but its weak, weak compared to say song of elbereth or even just reducing there morale by hitting them. 2 (or 3 with high enough grace) straight line blasts & your voice is all gone & your open if they decide to turn around. Compared to a few points of voice to clear a room with a decent investment in song & elbereth.

Had a lot more luck with horns of thunder. The turn to blast it isn't a big deal if your waiting in a corridor with the enemies lined-up, & I've found that +2 is often enough to make the difference with certain enemies. Particularly things like shadow spiders. I assume it's -2 for there to-hit, another -2 to there will for the blind attack & another -2 to there evasion so they're more likely to be dead before getting a blind attack in. The bonuses kinda add-up to a lot.
Also pack creatures morale is reduced when stunned. I found the difference is quite noticable if you hit them all in a corridor. The 1st break easier & it's more likely to start a chain reaction.

Horns of blasting, I had a funny situation recently where I got caught in a loop. I had to flee downwards & then would run back up the stairs trying to get back to a safe level, only to have to flee down again. I think I repeated this about 10 times before eventually beeing caught & dying.

Edit: I think a big part of the difference with me finding horns useful is I'm playing a smith. If I know I have a way to restore the dex pt. I'll possibly have a horn of thunder around 250'-400' where it's not clogging up my inventory.

[taptap]

Elbereth wins by repetition, you are singing it while doing other things each turn as opposed to that every application of a horn uses up a turn. Still, you can buff will for horns by 5 at once (channeling). Nobody seems to do it, but you can't sing Elbereth without the ability, so comparing with a horn without ability isn't entirely fair imo.