Sil : Suggestions

[taptap]

I find this statement very odd. We have an actual encumbrance number (which admittedly doesn't do much), and we also have the Stealth penalty for every 10lb of armour worn, which seems to me a much closer mechanical modelling of encumbrance than Evasion is. Could you explain your reasoning?

Not even sure which encumbrance number you mean, it certainly isn't mentioned in the manual. The binary slow / not slow? The carried weight? Or the ratio of your luggage to your carrying capacity?

Aren't the penalties on armour approximately corresponding to weight? No, penalty on robe - huge penalty on hauberk. No penalty on crown - significant penalty on heavy full helms (great helm or dwarf mask). No penalty on boots - penalty on greaves. The difference between heavy metal gear and light gear adds easily up to 10 point evasion. And with truly heavy builds people often omit additional evasion. So you end with something similar without introducing a new mechanism, even when it is a bit unclear how the Shortsword of Galadriel helps in climbing out of a pit.

[wobbly]

& my 9.7 lb kite shield of deflection? It's giving me +2

[Scatha]

[QUOTE=taptap;87489]Not even sure which encumbrance number you mean, it certainly isn't mentioned in the manual. The binary slow / not slow? The carried weight? Or the ratio of your luggage to your carrying capacity?[quote]

Fair question. I guess I was merging these together, thinking of the pair of carried weight and capacity (and the trigger for slowness associated).

Re. Evasion and armour: sure, of course there's a link there. That's why it's what the game uses at the moment! I was just surprised that you thought it was the closest thing in the game to encumbrance (not that it's obvious how you'd use one of the others mechanically for pits).

[BlueFish]

Same here. I pretty much played exclusively heavy protection low evasion and the only times I ever noticed any pain from pits was trying to kill Morgy and getting annoyed, and your same exact scenario of being surrounded at the gates... The gate pits are really horrific, as there is usually no place to attempt to move to since you are swarmed. I luckily had enough consumables to eventually kill something & get an open space. I suppose exchange places would work while you were in a pit?

It doesn't happen often to me but when it does I'm reminded of my recommended solution of gradual bonuses upon failures. I don't think that would be unbalancing in any way and it would ease some rare but real frustration due to an unlucky stumble onto the wrong trap.

Try a Belegost with 4 str, 1 dex, 4 con, 3 grace, 1 melee, 8 smithing, and weaponsmith, armorsmith, and artistry. It's really quite fun and perfectly viable (after the first forge) except when you hit a pit with a monster next to you at a shallow depth.

I like making a +1, 4 lb longbow at the second forge. Though that hits evasion even harder.

[BlueFish]

Oh, I've been meaning to mention a minor language issue. The (very cool) text displayed when you descend to 1000' begins with "From up this stair comes the harsh din of feasting in Morgoth's own hall."

That doesn't make sense since the stair doesn't go up, it goes down. So the harsh din shouldn't be coming from "up the stair". That should read either "From down this stair..." or "Up this stair...". I prefer the former.

[T-Mick]

Try "up from."

[BlueFish]

When you're blind and then wear a true sight item, the blindness is cured instantly. But when you're afraid and then wear a resist fear item, you remain afraid. Is this intentional?

[taptap]

When you're blind and then wear a true sight item, the blindness is cured instantly.

Wow, is it? I always thought passive effects don't work that way and are only used when the blinding occurs, that is why I keep true sight potions.

[Matoro]

Just few ideas from a Tolkienist's perspective:

Shouldn't Narsil be bastard sword or even greatsword instead of longsword?

Elendil wielded it as an longsword, and Elendil was the tallest of Men - mentioned to be almost 7'11" or 2.41 m. If that tall guy was able to use Narsil as an longsword, any shorter would probably had a large problems wielding it with one hand. Narsil was made for Noldor by Telchar (and average height among Noldor was about 1.90 m), but there is no mention in The Silmarillion that it's owner, Curufin, had kept it with him. When Curufin and Celegorm encounter Beren and Lúthien, Beren took only Angrist from Curufin. So this supports the idea that Narsil was a greatsword for "average" elves or men - Curufin would've probably had such good sword with him if it had been practical.

Anglachel and Anguirel could use a bit of polishing, too. After all, it was said that their creator's malice lived in those swords. Anglachel/Gurthang did mourn Beleg by turning black; it also "rejoiced" when Túrin unsheathed it to fight orcs. And of course there is an infamous conversation between Túrin and his sword just before Túrin's demise:

"Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou therefore take Túrin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?"
And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: "Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."

I don't have an idea how to incorporate this to the game, but it would be neat to have at least mention of intelligence of Anglachel and Anguirel in their descriptions.

And speaking of descriptions, I find Galadriel's shortsword's description factually incorrect:

"This sword was taken up by Galadriel, princess of the Noldor, in defence of her kinsfolk the Teleri when the Feanorians turned on them for their ships at far-off Alqualonde."

I know that Galadriel's (and Celeborn's) history had been rewrited many times by Tolkien, and that this is from "the latest" version of legendarium, one which Tolkien wrote in his very final years. While published the Silmarillion (and Tolkien's older writings) tell us that Galadriel went with Fingolfin's host (and might have fought in Alqualonde with the Fëanorians) and travelled through Hëlcaraxe and only met Celeborn in Middle-Earth, the other version (used in Sil description) told that Galadriel met Celeborn, Telerin prince, in Alqualonde, fought against the Fëanorians in the havens and then went over the sea with Celeborn (but this wouldn't still make the Teleri Galadriel's kinsfolk). Most Tolkien scholars prefer the first version, since it doesen't contradicts with other parts of Tolkien's legendarium (of course Tolkien might have had fixed those contradictions if he had ever lived to finish the Silmarillion). I know this is just a minor thing, but I think it would be more loyal to canon to use version where Galadriel was with Noldor, not with Teleri.

Another idea about swords of famous ladies: how about Hadhafang, "Throng-cleaver", sword used by Idril, Elrond and Arwen. I know this sword only exists in Peter Jackson's movieverse, but it could be an artifact curved sword (since we don't have those yet) which sustains grace and adds perception - something fitting for very light-armoured melee builds.

I can't remember if Sil has an artifact war hammer, but I've got an idea - it's from The Fall of Gondolin; there was an elf-lord named Rog (yes, that means "demon") who wielded war-hammer while defending Gondolin's gates. He led the House of Hammer of Wrath. How cool is that?

Anyway, The Unfinished Tales tells us: "that was a marvel and dread to the hosts of Melko (Morgoth), for ere that day never had any Balrogs been slain by the hand of Elves or Men". Rog led an assault from the northern gate and slayed legendary amounts of balrogs, dragons and other servants of Morgoth (but finally perished, since orcs were just too many). An artifact hammer of wrath which slays balrogs or something like that.

[Philip]

Lots of these sound fun. Making the galvorn swords intelligent seems like it would be impossible, so it appears the curses will have to be enough. The Galadriel problem can be fixed without making assumptions about Tolkien's intent though. We just say the the shortsword has protected fair Galadriel many times and not mention the Alqualonde stuff. As for grabbing something made up by Peter Jackson's team, that's up to the devs. I would suggest the addition of Sting, but renaming it to whatever it would have been before the sack of Gondolin. It is obvious Sting is a Gondolin weapon, and it should probably have spider-slaying qualities.

[Infinitum]

Those are some nice artifact ideas. Not so sure about Hadhafang since it's technically not Tolkien, and elven swords being curved is purely (?) a visual direction choice in the movies (curved blades being more exotic to a western audience and all).

I've seen the suggestion of axing the food/light clocks from the game being mentioned to and from so thought I should bring this to the suggestion thread - flavourwise a prospective adventurer bringing a few days worth of supplies in order to survive the delve into Angband makes as much sense to me as scavenging their way down as they go, and neither clock is severe enough to change how most games play out.

If this is implemented it would also be a prime opportunity to remove torches from the game as well, which are another pet peeve of mine in this kind of games - a burning, oil-drenched rag at the end of a stick is not suitable for indoors use under any circumstance, ever. No matter how cool it might appear to a modern audience.

Another random musing of mine; would it be possible to introduce an intermediate lightning state between the abolute light of the light radius and the darkness outside of it? Basically gloomy squares would behave like lit squares except that the player has to make a perception check against set values in order to see items/features and an opposed check against a monster's stealth score in order to see monsters. A partially succesful check could then maybe allow the player to make out a vague outline but no details about the item/monster in question (similar to the listen ability).

[Scatha]

Shouldn't Narsil be bastard sword or even greatsword instead of longsword?

We'd discussed this briefly, but I think you've made a more comprehensive case. I'm still not sure it's right, though. I don't know how sword length usually scales with height (if anyone has expertise, that would be interesting), and in any case there seems to be a fair amount of variation in reasonable sword length, so I'm not sure how strong a conclusion we can get.

I don't have an idea how to incorporate this to the game, but it would be neat to have at least mention of intelligence of Anglachel and Anguirel in their descriptions.

If you write descriptions which do this, we'd certainly consider them.

And speaking of descriptions, I find Galadriel's shortsword's description factually incorrect:

I see Tolkien's writings at different times as giving us different glimpses into how things may have gone. In general I prefer to go with his later versions, which are often offer more thought out and offer more compelling stories, and I like the inclusion of this vignette. I'm sure there is a consistent version of the story possible, that Tolkien had in mind even if he never wrote, and we're hinting at. We don't have any need to fit a maximally consistent version of the writing, even if some others make sacrifices to achieve this.

(but this wouldn't still make the Teleri Galadriel's kinsfolk)

Galadriel's mother was Telerin ...

I can't remember if Sil has an artifact war hammer, but I've got an idea - it's from The Fall of Gondolin; there was an elf-lord named Rog (yes, that means "demon") who wielded war-hammer while defending Gondolin's gates.

We have a hammer for Telchar already, but Rog's hammer is an interesting idea. (Note that as in Tolkien's later thoughts we have gone for a version of Balrogs which involves very few of them, so the story couldn't quite fit.)

[debo]

Telchar's warhammer sucks for melee right now, it's more of a "cool i don't have to make a smithing hammer" find. A melee-focused warhammer artefact with at least one bonus damage side would be great

[taptap]

Telchar's warhammer sucks for melee right now, it's more of a "cool i don't have to make a smithing hammer" find. A melee-focused warhammer artefact with at least one bonus damage side would be great

War hammers don't suck, you are just not strong enough

@longsword discussion:

It is kind of academic to discuss whether a longsword should really be a bastard sword, when IRL the longswords often were 1 1/2 hand weapons.

[BlueFish]

Funny thing: when your evasion is negative, enemy archers still halve it, which increases it.