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  • locus
    Adept
    • Nov 2012
    • 165

    #91
    Originally posted by BlueFish
    Funny thing: when your evasion is negative, enemy archers still halve it, which increases it.
    I guess if something isn't moving it's easier to hit it with a stick than an arrow?

    Comment

    • BlueFish
      Swordsman
      • Aug 2011
      • 414

      #92
      Originally posted by locus
      I guess if something isn't moving it's easier to hit it with a stick than an arrow?
      Ha. Fair point!

      Comment

      • Patashu
        Knight
        • Jan 2008
        • 528

        #93
        Is it actually confirmed that 0 evasion in Sil represents something physically meaningful? (Contrast for example the Fahrenheit temperature scale, where 0F is meaningless)
        My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu

        Comment

        • Scatha
          Swordsman
          • Jan 2012
          • 414

          #94
          The natural interpretation of 0 evasion (indeed 0 of any skill) is it's how good a typical unskilled human is.

          I think we've found an alternate meaning, though: 0 evasion is a target which is as hard to hit with an arrow as with a stick.

          More clearly defined is -5 evasion, which is not moving.

          Comment

          • BlueFish
            Swordsman
            • Aug 2011
            • 414

            #95
            Originally posted by Scatha
            More clearly defined is -5 evasion, which is not moving.
            Some of my dwarves would take that very personally.

            Comment

            • BlueFish
              Swordsman
              • Aug 2011
              • 414

              #96
              Just had a unique situation in my playing history. Really good start with my smithing Dwarf, found 4 forges I think through 450 feet. Also found Shield of Fingolfin, the perfect shield for my build and very fun (high prot and Con bonus). Tooling around 450 I got trapped in a north/south corridor between surprising numbers of Wargs, along with Orthrod the Orc Lord, his minions, and, eventually, a Giant. (After dying I discovered that the Greaves I'd just picked up were treacherous Paths.) To the north was everything but 4 of the Wargs. To the south were those 4 Wargs, all lined up in 4 tiles of the hallway. I had little to nothing identified at the time, but eventually found Quickness and Healing amidst my potions and was barely pulling through, with judicious swapping of my long swords of Gondolin and Doriath. I also had a Horn of Terror, which I was carrying along only because I hadn't had a reason to drop it after getting the 100 xp for identifying it 50 turns ago or so. Those 4 Wargs to the south were lined up so perfect and there was nothing else there between me and freedom. I blasted those low-will suckers and.... affected 2 of the 4. Sigh.

              It sure would be nice if horns had some potential use in extremely rare game situations. So perfect it would have been if that horn with its beam effect that can only be used once per 30 turns or so had cleared out those Wargs. Horns are all theory and no practice at this point and they really should be improved.

              Comment

              • locus
                Adept
                • Nov 2012
                • 165

                #97
                Yeah, I was doing the math on the Horn of Thunder the other day and it's really bad. You have to:
                1. find the item
                2. save an inventory slot for the item
                3. spend a turn
                4. pass a will check to be able to sound a note
                5. spend 20(!) voice
                6. beat the enemy's will check with your own


                all in order to get an effect that amounts to +2 to your skills for 2-4 turns. Horn of Terror requires that they not have enough morale to just tank the hit, which they will if you really need it. Horn of Force is an even more marginal effect than Thunder. Horn of Blasting is somewhere between convenient and lifesaving, but the other horns desperately need some doublings and halvings to be useful.

                Comment

                • taptap
                  Knight
                  • Jan 2013
                  • 710

                  #98
                  Originally posted by BlueFish
                  Horns are all theory and no practice at this point and they really should be improved.
                  What will did you have? In what shape were you? Morale effects can not be deployed efficiently when already heavily injured, which is perfectly sensible if you think about it. Slaying weapons do affect morale (even of bystanders of the same letter) with each hit and it should be not that difficult to put Wargs to flight between Doriath and Terror. Playing around with channeling I found horn of terror very reliable nonetheless, although expensive, the suggestion that channeling will in future reduce the horn cost to 10 voice has already been made and may make it to 1.3 if I understand scatha correctly.

                  Imo, people did not explore the morale aspect of the game as much as they did other aspects. The comments on the horns are way too much in isolation, we wouldn't talk that way about weapons. "A standard deathblade doesn't even make more damage compared to one-handed spears and is only marginally better in other respects. Quite useless frankly." (Yeah, until you get subtlety.) So why talk about horns without mentioning skill and the plethora of available will boosts on items and via channeling and song of staying - which would fit into bluefishs builds nicely btw - abilities?
                  Last edited by taptap; March 27, 2014, 10:42.

                  Comment

                  • half
                    Knight
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 910

                    #99
                    Originally posted by locus
                    Yeah, I was doing the math on the Horn of Thunder the other day and it's really bad. You have to:
                    1. find the item
                    2. save an inventory slot for the item
                    3. spend a turn
                    4. pass a will check to be able to sound a note
                    5. spend 20(!) voice
                    6. beat the enemy's will check with your own
                    This is a great point. Particularly that for all horns except Blasting and Warning you need to pass two Will checks. This is pretty unnecessary for an item type that people already mostly ignore. The only problem with completely removing the Will check needed to blow the horn in the first place is Blasting, which would then have no limitation and it is already a generally good item. My current thinking is to halve the voice cost and to remove that first check for everything except Blasting. It is possible that some of the Will checks could do with some bonuses, or that the durations (or amount of fear applied) could be increased, though that would take more thought.

                    You can add to that list: make a loud noise, attracting a lot of attention.

                    Comment

                    • Infinitum
                      Swordsman
                      • Oct 2013
                      • 315

                      Would it be possible to have walls/floors/ceilings/rubble have Will scores instead? Would allow for some extra uniformity in how horns work (and would also make it harder to Jericho through a solid stone wall than a pile of rubble).

                      Comment

                      • debo
                        Veteran
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 2402

                        Horn of rockets pls
                        Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

                        Comment

                        • half
                          Knight
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 910

                          Originally posted by Infinitum
                          Would it be possible to have walls/floors/ceilings/rubble have Will scores instead? Would allow for some extra uniformity in how horns work (and would also make it harder to Jericho through a solid stone wall than a pile of rubble).
                          Yes, this does sound better.

                          Comment

                          • debo
                            Veteran
                            • Oct 2011
                            • 2402

                            "the very walls of this place exert their malevolent will upon you"
                            Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

                            Comment

                            • wobbly
                              Prophet
                              • May 2012
                              • 2627

                              Originally posted by taptap
                              What will did you have? In what shape were you? Morale effects can not be deployed efficiently when already heavily injured, which is perfectly sensible if you think about it. Slaying weapons do affect morale (even of bystanders of the same letter) with each hit and it should be not that difficult to put Wargs to flight between Doriath and Terror. Playing around with channeling I found horn of terror very reliable nonetheless, although expensive, the suggestion that channeling will in future reduce the horn cost to 10 voice has already been made and may make it to 1.3 if I understand scatha correctly.
                              Provided the wargs are all lined up in a row, besides if you have a Doriath weapon it's not hard to make wargs flee without a horn of terror. Yeah I've had horns of terror work, but its weak, weak compared to say song of elbereth or even just reducing there morale by hitting them. 2 (or 3 with high enough grace) straight line blasts & your voice is all gone & your open if they decide to turn around. Compared to a few points of voice to clear a room with a decent investment in song & elbereth.

                              Had a lot more luck with horns of thunder. The turn to blast it isn't a big deal if your waiting in a corridor with the enemies lined-up, & I've found that +2 is often enough to make the difference with certain enemies. Particularly things like shadow spiders. I assume it's -2 for there to-hit, another -2 to there will for the blind attack & another -2 to there evasion so they're more likely to be dead before getting a blind attack in. The bonuses kinda add-up to a lot.
                              Also pack creatures morale is reduced when stunned. I found the difference is quite noticable if you hit them all in a corridor. The 1st break easier & it's more likely to start a chain reaction.

                              Horns of blasting, I had a funny situation recently where I got caught in a loop. I had to flee downwards & then would run back up the stairs trying to get back to a safe level, only to have to flee down again. I think I repeated this about 10 times before eventually beeing caught & dying.

                              Edit: I think a big part of the difference with me finding horns useful is I'm playing a smith. If I know I have a way to restore the dex pt. I'll possibly have a horn of thunder around 250'-400' where it's not clogging up my inventory.
                              Last edited by wobbly; March 27, 2014, 17:43.

                              Comment

                              • taptap
                                Knight
                                • Jan 2013
                                • 710

                                Elbereth wins by repetition, you are singing it while doing other things each turn as opposed to that every application of a horn uses up a turn. Still, you can buff will for horns by 5 at once (channeling). Nobody seems to do it, but you can't sing Elbereth without the ability, so comparing with a horn without ability isn't entirely fair imo.

                                Comment

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