Sil : Suggestions

[seraph]

This is the big problem for me as well. To combat this, I sometimes make debug-mode characters, give them a pool of XP to start and spend, and then never allow them to spend any more. I used to do 45k, which is roughly half of what you can expect to finish with. You could experiment with other values... it's just for fun and imagination, after all.

that sounds interesting. i would probably edit the early monsters to make them more difficult. i'd probably make stat drain (and restoration?) more common too, to simulate being worn down over time.

i guess another way to look at it is that, like bagori said, @ was always bad ass; they've just been "skill drained".

[HallucinationMushroom]

Fun fact: 45k is more than the first winner used.

Don't remind me. I was trying very hard to be first. The second winner had 71k...

Satyrs was the perfect way to win considering the lore. Nobody went on to sing for victory for a long time after that iirc.

[taptap]

Fun fact: 45k is more than the first winner used.

[bagori nd]

that sounds really fun and interesting--I'll give it a try sometime!

[HallucinationMushroom]

The real challenge to my suspension of disbelief is the advancement rate: the player goes from an average Joe/Jane/whatever to a warrior/singer/smith of legend in a matter of days, if not hours. I rationalize this by supposing @ was always that badass--it just takes them a while to get their sea legs after a taxing journey to Angband, and maybe at the late stages of the game they experience some heroic inspiration.)

This is the big problem for me as well. To combat this, I sometimes make debug-mode characters, give them a pool of XP to start and spend, and then never allow them to spend any more. I used to do 45k, which is roughly half of what you can expect to finish with. You could experiment with other values... it's just for fun and imagination, after all.

[bagori nd]

So, mechanicswise it would work identical to the current system but with name swaps. Eg "Hit Points" could be "Fate" and "Constitution" could be "Providence" or somesuch. Given how much JRR goes on about fate and the guidance of the Valar it seems fitting (it also implies the player in front of the computer is a god guiding the pc, so there's that).

Heh, that's not far from how I always interpreted hitpoins in Sil: the Noldor "are tall and lithe, yet so strong of spirit that they can endure vast hardship." So it's not that elves are super beefy or whatever; it's that they have a combination of luck, grit, and pseudo-mystical Tolkienish personal power that lets them turn otherwise fatal blows into less serious ones.

(The real challenge to my suspension of disbelief is the advancement rate: the player goes from an average Joe/Jane/whatever to a warrior/singer/smith of legend in a matter of days, if not hours. I rationalize this by supposing @ was always that badass--it just takes them a while to get their sea legs after a taxing journey to Angband, and maybe at the late stages of the game they experience some heroic inspiration.)

[Infinitum]

There's that, but healing potions doesn't make sense in a vaccuum either.

Another stream-of-consciousness thing; rewarding xp for monsters fleeing through stairs/chasms? Possibility of them dropping items in their terror as they do so? Uniques would obviously count as killed for the rest of the playthrough to avoid xp farming. Bane could be reworded (as could monster memory) to "defeated" instead of "killed" enemies for consistency.

At the moment I avoid Elbereth/Majesty out of fear of missing out on loot and xp, but there are winners that have won by scaring most everything off. Could be a fun playstyle to enourage.

EDIT: Oh hey, just realized it's been suggested at post #1 of the thread.

[taptap]

On a different track, is anyone else bothered by the fact that everyone and everything in the game is implied to heal what should be mortal wounds in minutes?

I proposed a no regeneration challenge mode. I even tried myself accounting for hits (in a stealth run) and only healing via potions. Would lead to stealth and archery heavy play or a sudden fancy of vampirism weapons, but that would be fine with me.

[Infinitum]

On a different track, is anyone else bothered by the fact that everyone and everything in the game is implied to heal what should be mortal wounds in minutes? This is an old complaint and weakness in most every game featuring "realistic" combat (see: cover shooter of your choice).

One suggestion I've seen thrown around every now and then is having what is essentially luck replacing hit points - eg instead of tanking/regenerating hits until hp reaches 0 and the character is dead the game treats everything about 0 hp as a near-miss. Once hp reaches 0 the player runs out of hail marys, is struck by an attack penetrating his or her armor and dies horribly.

Example of what being reduced to 1 hp might look like.

So, mechanicswise it would work identical to the current system but with name swaps. Eg "Hit Points" could be "Fate" and "Constitution" could be "Providence" or somesuch. Given how much JRR goes on about fate and the guidance of the Valar it seems fitting (it also implies the player in front of the computer is a god guiding the pc, so there's that).

[Infinitum]

Twohanding some random 3d5 battle axe. There is a 4d5 greataxe as well but that ends up critting less due to weight. Topped out damagewise around 65 which is incidentally the low mark for the crown itself. Ran out of strength pots fighting morgy and broke Grond on the third Sil. Down to 3 rage herbs I want to save for Carcaroth. Just gonna bite the bullet and make it a 2-sil victory I think; it is theorethically possible toget it out but cannot be bothered tbh.

[wobbly]

Pretty sure it isn't. 2lb longsword like Ringil I doubt you'll get it without sharpness & a slaying bonus. Even with 8 str, power, momentum, dramborleg, song of sharpness I ended up carrying the crown around for a bit till I could build up a slaying bonus on my last run.

It's pretty annoying with Morgoth dead. Personally I think Grond should be able to smash the crown. Then you'd be guaranteed 3 sils with him dead.

[seraph]

you're using ringil? is the crown affected by frost brand (or any brand)?

[Infinitum]

Been wailing on the crown for several hundred turns now what with no sharp weapons spawning all game long.

Does it really need to be a protection roll, and if so - 30d4? As is having a fraction of a percent's chance to break it out and unlock winning with the curse is just obnoxious.

[seraph]

forges that temporarily grant a random smithing ability, similar to enchanted forges.

[Infinitum]

Eh. Maybe JRR just didn't want all the hammers to go with the hammerers hammering away and went for synonyms for blunt weapons. Also, ain't no maces in Sil. Also: Hammer of Wrath still sounds totes coler than the mace of Rog or w/e, precedents be damned.

..Speaking of which, some curse ideas I've been nurturing for the wall that might be 1.4. Essentially, sticky curses are boring and don't actually present interesting choices to the player beyond making the id game more of a hassle. Treacherous Paths, the Haunted Realm and the curse of the final silmaril are pretty clutch however and the game do with more effects like those. Anyhow, some ideas I feel could work:

* Make every character have a hidden "curse counter" similar to the stun counter. Make certain enemies able to "curse" the character, thereby adding a random number to that counter which decays over time (similar to stunning).

* A "curse" is also a potential property of any item regardless of other enchantments present, eg Ring of Evasion +1 (cursed) or Longsword of Hador's House (cursed). Any cursed item equipped or present in a characters inventory adds a set, non-decaying number that characters curse counter. Cursed items don't need to be equipped to confer their maluses either (similar to current treacherous paths) in order to discourage swapping.

* Any character whose curse counter is currently above 0 will need to pass a will check every time they perform an action requiring a dice roll or be required to re-roll succesful rolls. The difficulty depends on how high the cursed counter currently is (no idea as to the exact formula). This is very similar to the curse of the third silmaril, but with an added will check (because strength of mind suppresses the curse itself; eg Frodo Baggins carrying the ring).

* Cursed items aren't initially advertised as such (unless the pc passes a perception test on pickup). Whenever a pc flunks a curse will test and failsan action as aresult, it also makes a perception test versus a set value. If passed, prompt the message "you suspect the [item] is cursed..." and the offending item gets a (cursed) tag. If the item in question carries a known curse and causes something *fun* to occur, "you realize your [item] carries a curse (of X)!"

* Where X, of course, is where different curses come into play =). Not all cursed items need to be special, just some for fun's sake. The item gets a (*cursed*) tag, with specifics provided by the "look" command, eg "[...] Unfortunatley, it carries a curse (of X)". *Cursed* items still add to the curse counter, in addition to various other effects.

* Some ideas for different curses:

- Heavily cursed: adds twice the normal amount to the curse counter.

- Curse of treacherous paths: small percentage chance each turn to spawn ood monster at stairs, the chance rises with the curse counter.

- Curse of the Haunted Realm: small percentage chance to spawn wraiths each turn (like treacherous paths). Player gets bonus perception to spot otherworldly creatures, but also a malus to stealth vs the same.

- Curse of morgoth's beckon: whenever the player attempts to ascend a staircase, he needs to pass a curse test (will test versus versus the curse counter difficulty) or descend instead.

- Curse of dereliction: Rings/Amulets only. Whenever an attack succesful because of a failed curse test causes the pc to fall into red health with adjacent enemies present he needs to pass a perception test vs the curse counter or the item disappears forever. Lose the perception test by a lot and the pc doesn't even get a prompt what happened. 'Sup Isildur =)

- Curse of Wrath: Enemies get aggression bonus as usual. In addition, if the pc tries to move to an empty square instead of attacking an adjacent enemy there's a chance the pc attacks that enemy instead. Herbs of Rage should do something simular speaking of which.

- Curse of the corrupted theme: Sporadic curse checks when the character sings, if failed his song gets corrupted - slaying bonus starts benefitting adjacent enemies instead, freedom and mastery entrances the singer, the trees drains light and so on and so forth. Throwback to Morgoths stunt during the creation of the world.

- Curse of the foreseen end: A random enemy spawned on dungeon level creation gets massive stat bonuses depending on the curse counter. The player gets a perception check as to whether they notice it's their nemesis when they spot them =)

* Obviously lore keeper and cursebreaker abilities would need some changes. Lore keeper could get a bonus to curse perception checks and automatically know the *cursed* properties of items once they're identified as cursed (without suffering the *fun* first). Cursebreaker could be repla

* In effect, the player would need to weigh the benefits of known cursed items vs the risk of carrying them. High will characters (that have invested in relevant abilites) would be able to wield several powerful cursed items without breaking a sweat whereas weak-willed ones would run a very real risk sporting even one or two, especially when fighting monsters that can temporarily curse them further.