Overall 3.5

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  • Spacebux
    Adept
    • Apr 2009
    • 231

    Overall 3.5

    1st - apologies for the dump of a bunch of issues into a singular forum that really ought to be spread out .. and spam the entire forum.

    2nd - let me preface this by stating I think this 3.5 version is one of the best releases I've played in quite a while. I can see the work you've put in trying to make the dungeon rooms & levels more interesting.. the parallelograms, the bat-rooms, the long winding hallways with intricate connection patterns, .. I even gave a snicker to the vault tribute to Pac-Man. I know you volunteer a lot of hours and labor into maintaining & improving the game. I would say, "well done!". Below are my thoughts and feedback for you given my first experience(s) with the game. I'm already on my 4th or 5th character, but I think I finally have a winner.

    -------------------

    Item i: mimics are NOT visible if those items are squelched.
    The 125 gold pieces worth of copper {squelch} was really a monster!
    One @ will be running along a seemingly clear hallway, full of "......." dots, and boom! suddenly you run over a Ring of See Invisible that was really a mimic!. I would suggest adding a condition in the code to see if an item type for the mimic is in the squelch list or not. If it is, choose another item to imitate. This happens with all mimic types, except chests.

    Item ii: the item drop rates for utility rods, I think, needs to be tweaked a bit. It seems that after ~2500', the items you really needed but hardly ever saw prior to 2000' are rarely needed AFTER that depth as equipment and player attributes tend to catch up. E.g., though I often play a mage, rods of ID, Detection, Recall, Mapping, are often spotted sub 3000'. By then, characters tend to have supplies of !s of enlightenment, spells/scrolls/staves of ID, and ditto for mapping. In fact, by 3000', the player often has an arkenstone equivalent. I suppose it makes sense if one is playing sans artifacts, but in vanilla or rand-arts, those items are often generated too deep, too late in the game to be of use to the player. I would rather see them generated less often, but at higher depths 800~1500' to aid those mid-level characters... when they tend to need those items most. Ditto for some of the higher potions; I think the rarity may be increased while reducing the minimum level to find some of them. Right now there's just a huge dump of high level stuff in the deepest depths with quite a vacancy up top. Especially as the Up/Down potions no longer matter & Charisma's gone, there's quite a void of discovery between ~500' and ~1800' for potions.

    Item iii: a lot of work went into dungeon mapping. There are times when a GV, though, is generated in the middle of the level and splits the level into two completely separate sections. Being a mage, this really isn't much of an issue. But, other classes would have to rely on wands of Stone to Mud or Tunnel several squares to connect a hallway between the two separate section levels. (see image enclosed for an example). But, if one is not aware of a level (via enlightenment or detection, et. al.), one may never know / notice there's another section to a given level.

    Item iv: I think RandArts is even more enjoyable now that Charisma is no longer an attribute sucking option for the RandArts R.N.G. However, at the same time, the ↑ ↓ potions of brawn, intellect, contemplation, .. , have all but lost their worth. Even before I had max-stats, I had those potions squelched early on.

    Item v: *Enlightenment* potions ought to also ID everything on the level rather than augment Int/Wis.

    Item vi: plasma is annoying. Especially if/when a character has ImmFire or even double-resist up. Finding an immunity is hard enough, but if ImmFire won't stop plasma (which is around the same depths as when the plasma attacks begin), why bother? It makes ImmFire that much less attractive, in my mind.

    Item vii: following that sentiment - attacks players cannot control / defend against - time, gravity, inertia, mana storms, water, ice, et. al. - I would like to see those attacks be weighed against either the player's Save % or AC or both. As with Blue Wizards forever sending my player afar, sometimes I get the save, sometimes I don't. I believe the character ought to have a defense mechanism for a majority of those attack types. For example, mana storms could be abated if a player is employing a magical shield, the "Shield" spell in R&S for mages, or make a separate "Mana shield" spell / prayer / rod / scroll type to magically ward off those indefensible attack types - gravity, time, inertia, water... .

    Item viii: Race, not Class, should be the primary determination for HPs and initial AC adjustments. A Half-troll Mage ought to have more HPs than a Hobbit Warrior... in my mind. Yes, each race has its own hit-die, but the Class bonuses often supercede the main Race attributes. Further, I think the HP spread should be wider than 3/8ths to 5/8ths MAX HPs; something like 1/4th to 3/4ths would be more exciting. I know you're loathe to add more birth-options, but allowing the player to set the {brackets} on variance of HPs would be alluring.

    Item ix: Now that Charisma is a thing of the past, would be nice to re-enable the Auto-roller. I often read posts that essentially state cursed items were removed due to the annoyance they caused players. Well, wonderful, I hate hitting 'r'... its annoying. Give me back my auto-roller. Please.

    Item x: If / when / once a player kills Morgoth, the game kind of becomes anti-climatic quickly. What if a method existed where Morgoth & pals could reincarnate themselves later on... (like a really good number of turns later, maybe a million or so) and possibly hunt down the @ no matter which level in the dungeon she/he was on. The player would still be regarded as a WINNER for killing Morgoth the first time, but, "a cold wind suddenly blows through the dungeon" could be a precursor to something extraordinary about to happen.

    Item xi: Along the lines of uniques grouping together, what if you had a group of semi-unique mobs. Mobs that are high level in nature, yet limited. E.g., what if the max number of Black Reavers or Greater Balrogs were limited to 10-50 in the game. That make those separate, smaller goals for the player to achieve in the course of a game, and, make it more special when Vecna or Gothmog summon in 'special friends'. Hellhounds for Huan. Maybe a semi-unique type of bear for Beorn.

    Item xii: Semantics. "You see no more xxxx." That message rubs me the wrong way everytime. That message is sent irregardless of whether the action upon such consumable is taken or not. My preference would be that message is no longer broadcast, period. "You see no more scrolls of see invisible", "You have no more weapons of mass destruction", et. al. I think those messages can be eliminated from the game. If a repeat 'n' key is issued, the game could respond with a generic, "what are you trying to do again?" message.

    Item xiii: Others have clamored for a Bigger Home. Perhaps let the character potentially buy out a store and make that a 2nd or even 3rd home. Let the character negotiate with the store owner, offer 1 mil AU + price of all inventory, or something like that. No, I'm not offering to code it, just offering the suggestion.. free of charge.


    Ok - these are my ideas and observations of 3.5. I know some will hurl plasma bolts in my general direction, but I offer these as feedback for the developers and maintainers of the game.

    'Bux.
  • Spacebux
    Adept
    • Apr 2009
    • 231

    #2
    Screenshot..

    Doesn't look like my screen shot made it.
    Attached Files

    Comment

    • Spacebux
      Adept
      • Apr 2009
      • 231

      #3
      Another anomaly

      The Pit Fiend breathes chaos.
      You resist the effect! <3x>


      Not sure what happened, or why I had the chaos affect hit my character three times, but I'm lucky I was at / near full health as even with RChaos on, I took ~500 dam in one round.

      1 breath, 3 hits... ?

      Comment

      • debo
        Veteran
        • Oct 2011
        • 2402

        #4
        Maybe there are 3 potential status effects (or attempts to inflict the same effect) when you get chaosbreathed.
        Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

        Comment

        • Spacebux
          Adept
          • Apr 2009
          • 231

          #5
          Originally posted by debo
          Maybe there are 3 potential status effects (or attempts to inflict the same effect) when you get chaosbreathed.
          It'd be the first time I'd ever seen / experienced such.

          If I have a chance, I'll look at the code later on and see if I can spot what's going on there.

          Comment

          • Derakon
            Prophet
            • Dec 2009
            • 9022

            #6
            Yes, chaos can cause hallucinations, confusion, and lifedrain, each of which can be individually resisted even if you don't have chaos resistance.

            ...er, well, except there's no "protection from hallucination" ability, I guess. Still, you get three "you resist the X" messages for that reason.

            For your other points,

            Item i: mimics are NOT visible if those items are squelched.
            This has been discussed before; the devs generally feel that squelching ought to be a UI thing, nothing more. Making it modify gameplay has potential abuse vectors built-in: for example, you could squelch all rings except for speed rings and thus learn what flavor speed rings are well before you see one (since ring mimics show up before speed rings do). Generally, though, mimics are coded to only mimic desirable items. If you look up their entries in monster.txt you'll see what kinds of items they'll mimic.

            Item ii: the item drop rates for utility rods, I think, needs to be tweaked a bit.
            No disagreement here. Warriors in particular can have major trouble with the rarity of Rods of Trap Location, which got a ton more rare when the first pass of Too Much Junk happened. Used to be if you didn't find one by 400' then something was seriously screwy, but nowadays you can routinely make it to 1000' without finding one.

            Item iii: a lot of work went into dungeon mapping. There are times when a GV, though, is generated in the middle of the level and splits the level into two completely separate sections.
            I believe Fizzix has some ideas for improved dungeon generation that might fix this, but working on Angband's generation algorithm is really hard. Fortunately, by the time greater vaults typically start showing up, the player should at the very least have a Staff of Teleportation.

            Item iv: I think RandArts is even more enjoyable now that Charisma is no longer an attribute sucking option for the RandArts R.N.G. However, at the same time, the ↑ ↓ potions of brawn, intellect, contemplation, .. , have all but lost their worth. Even before I had max-stats, I had those potions squelched early on.
            They're absolutely still useful for min-maxing your character. Young mages, for example, have precisely two important stats: INT and STR. Potions of Intellect and Brawn can thus be very useful. Sure, you'll want to boost your CON later, but in the short-term, having more spellpoints and being able to carry more stuff is far more important.

            Item v: *Enlightenment* potions ought to also ID everything on the level rather than augment Int/Wis.
            Careful with this: identified artifacts can be lost. Quaffing *Enlightenment* and then being forced to flee the level would be painful.

            Item vi: plasma is annoying. Especially if/when a character has ImmFire or even double-resist up. Finding an immunity is hard enough, but if ImmFire won't stop plasma (which is around the same depths as when the plasma attacks begin), why bother? It makes ImmFire that much less attractive, in my mind.
            Immunity to fire is the best immunity, bar none, because there are a crapton of sources of fire damage in the game. It also enables casters to only carry 1 copy of each town spellbook, which is a significant weight savings. Plasma is not fire.

            Item vii: following that sentiment - attacks players cannot control / defend against - time, gravity, inertia, mana storms, water, ice, et. al. - I would like to see those attacks be weighed against either the player's Save % or AC or both...I believe the character ought to have a defense mechanism for a majority of those attack types.
            The game is balanced around these attacks being unresistable. If you make them resistable by whatever means, then their power will need to be increased to compensate, and you're just back where you started except that now your gear/stat requirements are more stringent (and if you base things off of saving throw, then races/classes with bad saves get even more screwed than they are already...).

            The bottom line is that you're in the middle of a dungeon filled with Morgoth's minions. This is not a safe place to be. You should not feel safe. Unresistable attacks are a big part of encouraging that.

            Item viii: Race, not Class, should be the primary determination for HPs and initial AC adjustments. A Half-troll Mage ought to have more HPs than a Hobbit Warrior... in my mind. Yes, each race has its own hit-die, but the Class bonuses often supercede the main Race attributes.
            An interesting idea, but I've a feeling it would end up meaning that nobody would be able to play the more fragile races as melee characters at all. Some classes simply take more damage than others.

            Item ix: Now that Charisma is a thing of the past, would be nice to re-enable the Auto-roller. I often read posts that essentially state cursed items were removed due to the annoyance they caused players. Well, wonderful, I hate hitting 'r'... its annoying. Give me back my auto-roller. Please.
            What's wrong with buying stats instead of random rolling? You aren't going to get a better character with the roller than you can get with stat-buy -- the "power level" (for want of a better term) of characters is capped.

            Item x: If / when / once a player kills Morgoth, the game kind of becomes anti-climatic quickly.
            Well, you've already won, so yes, you're past the climax of the game. I wouldn't be opposed to adding a post-game, but I'd want to see it be done well; most roguelike postgames I've seen have just been "here, have an unstoppable uberboss and his unstoppable minions". Mix things up a bit, take some risks with the design. Feel free, above all, to kill the player.

            Item xi: Along the lines of uniques grouping together, what if you had a group of semi-unique mobs.
            No real opinion on this one.

            Item xii: Semantics. "You see no more xxxx." That message rubs me the wrong way everytime. That message is sent irregardless of whether the action upon such consumable is taken or not. My preference would be that message is no longer broadcast, period. "You see no more scrolls of see invisible", "You have no more weapons of mass destruction", et. al. I think those messages can be eliminated from the game. If a repeat 'n' key is issued, the game could respond with a generic, "what are you trying to do again?" message.
            Writing these messages in a clean way turns out to be way more complicated than you might think. It's not surprising that there are some odd edge cases. Feel free to call out specific things that you think can be improved.

            Item xiii: Others have clamored for a Bigger Home.
            The devs generally don't seem to feel it important that the home be the size it currently is. If/when stores get reworked, it's likely the home will become significantly larger, or possibly even infinite.

            Comment

            • Malak Darkhunter
              Knight
              • May 2007
              • 730

              #7
              Current run half-troll warrior..found a rod restoration at 300 feet, I found that to be crazy generous, then I find several artifact weapons before 2000 feet, and I find the spear of Orome which I consider to be an end game potential weapon also before 2000 feet, I had a very powerful weapon and restoration capabilities before the game even started to get difficult, alowing me to destroy (nearly) every unique I came across..( I did run from Itaganst and Radagast however because they where very OOD for levels 30-35.
              The game is more interesting in some areas like group uniques (which I like) and makes them more dangerous. But I still find the game a bit to generous, I had no need of ego items before I even found ego items because I was already getting artifacts.

              Comment

              • Nick
                Vanilla maintainer
                • Apr 2007
                • 9637

                #8
                First, thanks for the post - we need this sort of discussion. I'm not going to respond to all of it.


                Originally posted by Spacebux
                mimics are NOT visible if those items are squelched.
                The 125 gold pieces worth of copper {squelch} was really a monster!
                One @ will be running along a seemingly clear hallway, full of "......." dots, and boom! suddenly you run over a Ring of See Invisible that was really a mimic!. I would suggest adding a condition in the code to see if an item type for the mimic is in the squelch list or not. If it is, choose another item to imitate. This happens with all mimic types, except chests.
                I think this is actually correct behaviour. The current philosophy is that "squelching" (although that terminology will be eliminated) is actually a choice by the character to ignore certain objects. The idea is that those objects are still there, but your character cares about them so little that they just become like part of the floor. This leaves the character open to attack by creatures that have cunningly mimicked something insignificant.

                That said, I don't know if I really like the behaviour, and a way around it would be nice (although I think Derakon is right about your idea).

                Originally posted by Spacebux
                a lot of work went into dungeon mapping. There are times when a GV, though, is generated in the middle of the level and splits the level into two completely separate sections. Being a mage, this really isn't much of an issue. But, other classes would have to rely on wands of Stone to Mud or Tunnel several squares to connect a hallway between the two separate section levels. But, if one is not aware of a level (via enlightenment or detection, et. al.), one may never know / notice there's another section to a given level.
                There is a specific problem involved here to do with the way levels are ensured connected, and the way greater vaults are treated. There are a few possible fixes, one of which will happen. I have big plans for dungeon gen, some of them already set up and just awaiting deployment


                Originally posted by Spacebux
                the item drop rates for utility rods, I think, needs to be tweaked a bit
                I don't have much of a feel for this (too much coding, not enough playing), but keep mentioning it.

                Originally posted by Spacebux
                plasma is annoying. Especially if/when a character has ImmFire or even double-resist up. Finding an immunity is hard enough, but if ImmFire won't stop plasma (which is around the same depths as when the plasma attacks begin), why bother? It makes ImmFire that much less attractive, in my mind.
                One possibility is to make (as Oangband does) plasma a combination of fire and electricity. I do plan to do some interesting things with some of the higher elements, but on the whole I'll probably make them more annoying

                Originally posted by Spacebux
                If / when / once a player kills Morgoth, the game kind of becomes anti-climatic quickly.
                IMHO this is working exactly as intended - some people like to play on and try to find all the artifacts, or max their experience counter, or whatever, but most people will just start another game.

                Originally posted by Spacebux
                Along the lines of uniques grouping together, what if you had a group of semi-unique mobs. Mobs that are high level in nature, yet limited. E.g., what if the max number of Black Reavers or Greater Balrogs were limited to 10-50 in the game. That make those separate, smaller goals for the player to achieve in the course of a game, and, make it more special when Vecna or Gothmog summon in 'special friends'. Hellhounds for Huan. Maybe a semi-unique type of bear for Beorn.
                Yeah, interesting idea, and could be applied to objects too. I mean, it already essentially happens for the ringwraiths.

                Originally posted by Spacebux
                "You see no more xxxx." That message rubs me the wrong way everytime. That message is sent irregardless of whether the action upon such consumable is taken or not. My preference would be that message is no longer broadcast, period. "You see no more scrolls of see invisible", "You have no more weapons of mass destruction", et. al. I think those messages can be eliminated from the game. If a repeat 'n' key is issued, the game could respond with a generic, "what are you trying to do again?" message.
                Message spam has been a longstanding problem. The messages are one of my very favourite parts of Angband, and I would certainly like to improve them. It is on the list.

                Originally posted by Spacebux
                Others have clamored for a Bigger Home. Perhaps let the character potentially buy out a store and make that a 2nd or even 3rd home. Let the character negotiate with the store owner, offer 1 mil AU + price of all inventory, or something like that. No, I'm not offering to code it, just offering the suggestion.. free of charge.
                Noted, something will happen at some stage.
                One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                Comment

                • debo
                  Veteran
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 2402

                  #9
                  I always thought that the different powers mimics have are actually interesting even if they aren't mimics. They're kind of like mini drujs! I honestly think you could just remove the mimicing part altogether and make them some sort of minor druj (maybe give them more stuff) and get rid of all this buggery and tomfoolery and interface stuff (it seems like mimics are either constantly buggy or confusing)
                  Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

                  Comment

                  • Malak Darkhunter
                    Knight
                    • May 2007
                    • 730

                    #10
                    I would like to see better more detailed level feelings. One thing I always loved about Sangband was the detailed level feelings you got as your (perception) skill increased, you would get a level feeling as soon as you entered the level, and it would let you know if the level was very dangerous, held powerful uniques or held powerful objects.

                    Comment

                    • Malak Darkhunter
                      Knight
                      • May 2007
                      • 730

                      #11
                      One other thing I think would be cool would be to allow mundane {Magical} weapons actualy to have the chance to be useful, the deeper the level the higher chance of higher pluses on a weapon. Not artifact or ego, but allow an average magical weapon the chance to have pluses of +10 to +20 . I get tired of seeing magic weapons have pluses of only +7+8.

                      Comment

                      • Derakon
                        Prophet
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 9022

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Malak Darkhunter
                        I would like to see better more detailed level feelings. One thing I always loved about Sangband was the detailed level feelings you got as your (perception) skill increased, you would get a level feeling as soon as you entered the level, and it would let you know if the level was very dangerous, held powerful uniques or held powerful objects.
                        Meanwhile, I want to see level feelings disappear altogether.

                        As for magical pluses, some degree of care needs to be taken here. Firstly, pluses are more powerful than many ego effects -- a Flail of Slay Whatever (+10,+10) is worth less than a Flail (+10,+15) in almost all cases, for example. Secondly, it'd interact poorly with the current squelch/pseudo-ID system, which classifies {magical} as strictly less good than any ego item. The latter is probably fixable as part of an overall ID overhaul, but it's worth keeping in mind.

                        Comment

                        • Spacebux
                          Adept
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 231

                          #13
                          Hidden Mimics

                          Originally posted by Nick
                          First, thanks for the post - we need this sort of discussion. I'm not going to respond to all of it.
                          What happened?? This used to be a board full of trolls and half trolls waiting to torment the feeble & weak minded posters.. pleasantly surprised.


                          Re: mimics not being seen -
                          I think this is actually correct behaviour. The current philosophy is that "squelching" (although that terminology will be eliminated) is actually a choice by the character to ignore certain objects. The idea is that those objects are still there, but your character cares about them so little that they just become like part of the floor. This leaves the character open to attack by creatures that have cunningly mimicked something insignificant.

                          That said, I don't know if I really like the behaviour, and a way around it would be nice (although I think Derakon is right about your idea).
                          If mimics turn out to be a squelched item, then, so as to not give away an item's identity, one idea might be to make mimics appear as a yet un-ID'd ring/potion/scroll type, OR, morph them into trappers or lurkers. This still wouldn't solve squelched $ types, and as the list of un-ID'd stuff dwindles, it gets easier and easier to spot them---either its a ring of power, or, more likely, a mimic. Another, perhaps simpler solution would be to perform a check, if a mimic turns out to be on the squelch list, then either don't generate it or pick another mob.


                          ###########
                          .........@............
                          ###########


                          If I run either right or left, and suddenly a message appears, "the 125 gold of copper coins was actually a monster!", it doesn't make sense to my character's driver behind the monitor. But, ok, my character's character flaw.

                          Comment

                          • Nick
                            Vanilla maintainer
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 9637

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Malak Darkhunter
                            I would like to see better more detailed level feelings. One thing I always loved about Sangband was the detailed level feelings you got as your (perception) skill increased, you would get a level feeling as soon as you entered the level, and it would let you know if the level was very dangerous, held powerful uniques or held powerful objects.
                            So this gives me an idea. There are people who regard level feelings as a misfeature, and people who like them. How about having occasional level feelings?

                            For example, you could have a random roll to decide whether to give a feeling or not, and if yes then it picks on some aspect of the generation and says something about it. Rather than an overall assessment as currently, I'm thinking things like "The bones and scratches on the floor tell of dragons" or "The air feels cold as the grave". Similarly there could be indications of types of object, or types of room.

                            The randomness deals with the "scum for good levels" issue, and the feelings would be more of a teaser than an assessment (which are currently pretty approximate).
                            One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                            In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                            Comment

                            • Nick
                              Vanilla maintainer
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 9637

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Spacebux
                              Another, perhaps simpler solution would be to perform a check, if a mimic turns out to be on the squelch list, then either don't generate it or pick another mob.
                              Or make it be "naked", and act like one of debo's minor drujs.
                              One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                              In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                              Comment

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