Overall 3.5

[Timo Pietilä]

To be clear, this means you take between half normal damage, and 6/7ths normal damage. Not that damage can be reduced by up to 6/7ths (i.e. only take 1/7th normal damage).

This entire system is dumb and should be replaced by a flat damage reduction.

I have opposite opinion to that. Flat damage reduction is boring (and as it is now; too powerful with double-resistance).

[Spacebux]

Any time you propose "locking the player in", you greatly increase the risk the player is taking. This is doubly true when the player cannot see what is in the vault prior to entering. Angband is in many ways about taking calculated risks. Do I risk popping this wall down and spending a turn in LOS of this nasty monster who's standing between me and an unknown ring type? Do I risk waking up that Black Reaver who's standing next to that tasty-looking dragon pit? Et cetera.

I'm not sure if it was read that way, but I never proposed the player be 'locked' in to a Vault-special-level. Recall / Telep Level / Alter Reality spells, scrolls would still function in those Vault-special-levels. And, no, when was the last time you saw Vecna in a 1000' Vault?!?!

Remember, the player always has the initiative when coming into a level. The same would be for a Vault-special-level. Indeed, the Vault designer could potentially turn the lights on in some instances, or off in other cases.

I'm sensing a lot of 'Fear of the Unknown' here. I think you'll find play quality and enjoyment would actually INCREASE in most cases.


Each time you descend stairs, you have no idea whether you'll pop into a pack of Time Hounds or the outskirts of a U-pit. The risks are the same...
Rather than have one singular Labyrinth level, have a myriad of special Vault levels reachable only via the colored '>' symbols in a regular dungeon level. That's where the Greater and Medium vaults ought to be.

[Spacebux]

Farmer Maggott.

By the way, can Morgoth summon Maggott to his aid?

[Estie]

I'm not sure if it was read that way, but I never proposed the player be 'locked' in to a Vault-special-level. Recall / Telep Level / Alter Reality spells, scrolls would still function in those Vault-special-levels. And, no, when was the last time you saw Vecna in a 1000' Vault?!?!

Remember, the player always has the initiative when coming into a level. The same would be for a Vault-special-level. Indeed, the Vault designer could potentially turn the lights on in some instances, or off in other cases.

I'm sensing a lot of 'Fear of the Unknown' here. I think you'll find play quality and enjoyment would actually INCREASE in most cases.


Each time you descend stairs, you have no idea whether you'll pop into a pack of Time Hounds or the outskirts of a U-pit. The risks are the same...
Rather than have one singular Labyrinth level, have a myriad of special Vault levels reachable only via the colored '>' symbols in a regular dungeon level. That's where the Greater and Medium vaults ought to be.

Well you said something to the extend that the staircase can only be reached after clearing the vault. Whats the point of that feature if you can just recall/tele level ?

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm not sure if it was read that way, but I never proposed the player be 'locked' in to a Vault-special-level. Recall / Telep Level / Alter Reality spells, scrolls would still function in those Vault-special-levels. And, no, when was the last time you saw Vecna in a 1000' Vault?!?!

If that's the case I would never enter a vault without teleport level, ESP or 10+ infravision and 600+HP & resist basic 4 and poison, pconf and pblind. Just to be sure that I survive the first turn there.

Vecna is a bit too deep. Ossë, dracolich, AMHD, drolem and couple of major demons (from distance-artillery department) you can get at 1000'

[Spacebux]

Well you said something to the extend that the staircase can only be reached after clearing the vault. Whats the point of that feature if you can just recall/tele level ?

Yes, I still adhere to that point being left to the designer of the vault---where to place the exit(s) from a vault. Yet, the power to leave the vault level earlier would still be in the power of the player via spell/scroll/rod.

Let me use a bit of reverse logic, to see if it helps clear things up:Why have permanent walls surrounding Medium and Greater Vaults?

The only points of having perma-walls in the dungeon itself is (as the game is currently designed) to:

1. prevent mobs in the vault from leaving early (in most cases) after waking up.
2. create a well-defined areaS
3. defining entry / exit points for the player to enter and leave from the vault

Now, whats the point of that feature if you can just recall/tele level ?
The exact same question(s) can be posed of the current Vault scheme. Players can still recall, telep level, phase door, telep self, alter reality, et. al. in the current design. The Perma-wall around Vaults does not prevent the player from doing any of those escape activities.


Please understand, I'm not trying to make a death trap out of the Vaults. Simply, remove them from the current dungeon mapping, place a colored '>>>>' in their stead and let a player enter/exit has she/he/it normally would via staircases. All other game metrics still apply... just as if they were in a labyrinth level, yet the MaxDepth does not change and the boundaries of the Vault would all depend on the Vault's design.

In my opinion, this will enhance the game play for all.

[Timo Pietilä]

In my opinion, this will enhance the game play for all.

Main problem with this still stays: you are entering potential death-trap area with no means to detect if it is safe or not. Walls in vaults don't prevent that.

If you make those vaults so that there is always empty safe space to player to enter, then why remove them from normal level? If not, then they are not safe places to enter until you can handle everything. And since that is never the case in angband they are not safe to enter. Ever.

That's the problem.

Maybe if just make "special levels" with a bit more action that you can enter using those special doorways and leave vaults as they are then it could be improvement.

[wobbly]

What if you kept the normal vaults & made the "vault levels" bonus levels for a forced decent game? So the downside is you don't know what your getting in to. The upside is you get an extra level to prepare for the final battle?

[Estie]

I thought I had understood what you wanted to do, but by now I am completely confused and back to square one. As I understand it, the only difference between current state and your proposed vault level is that you have the entrance inside the vault instead of outside. This would be huge if there was a stairtrap, but apparently thats not the plan. So how exactly does a little bit of digable dungeon around the vault - which is the current situation - change anything at all ?
The only point I can see is that teleport (other or self) is more limited; depending on the intricacy of the map layout, you can basically make it useless (one open room) if you so wish. Is this the idea ? If so, how is it different from the multitude of times where you encounter a vault without having any or very limited teleport other abilities ?
Case: I see a vault with Vecna inside. I have no teleport other available. I leave the vault alone.
Or: I enter a vault level. I detect Vecna inside. I might have teleport other, but the layout is open and I see no way to park him anywhere. I leave the vault via recall.

[Malak Darkhunter]

This is kind of already in play it seems...I went down a down staircase to DL 89 and it dropped me into a greater vault, that's it.. nothing else just a greater vault for a level.

[Derakon]

This is kind of already in play it seems...I went down a down staircase to DL 89 and it dropped me into a greater vault, that's it.. nothing else just a greater vault for a level.

Really? Got a screenshot? I don't think I've ever seen something like that. Are you sure it wasn't a labyrinth level?

[Spacebux]

I thought I had understood what you wanted to do, but by now I am completely confused and back to square one.

OK, if I have time today, I will try to put together a series of screen shots simulating what I am trying to propose.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Really? Got a screenshot? I don't think I've ever seen something like that. Are you sure it wasn't a labyrinth level?

Just dropped into it, let me check it out, and post a screenie.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Just posted a sceen shot under screenshots section, wand of mapping only lit up the vault and pressing "M" key enlarges the vault kind of like as if you where on the town level.

[AnonymousHero]

Just posted a sceen shot under screenshots section, wand of mapping only lit up the vault and pressing "M" key enlarges the vault kind of like as if you where on the town level.

That's a labyrinth level.