v4 now available

[Narvius]

I think it would be less misleading to not use the affixes at all in the item name itself, instead only some generic "Runed" or "Enchanted" or something to denote that it is, in fact, an ego. All affixes then can be seen on the Inspect screen.

[Magnate]

I think it would be less misleading to not use the affixes at all in the item name itself, instead only some generic "Runed" or "Enchanted" or something to denote that it is, in fact, an ego. All affixes then can be seen on the Inspect screen.

But wouldn't that lose an awful lot of flavour? That means that almost every non-artifact item in the 2nd half of the dungeon would be called Runed. That would seem awfully dull.

[Narvius]

Yeah, I know this particular approach isn't all that great, but I hope you see that something less misleading would be necessary here. Someone else can probably think of something more flavourful.

[Magnate]

Found a Rusty Main Gauche, not I'ded on Pickup or wield, though I'd have thought it would be, it also ID'ed as (Magical), should that be poor or cursed?
*edit* Did Inspect it, and found that it had no other qualities.

This is WAD, as Rusty gives a malus to-hit, and those are only known after trying to hit something. The {magical} inscription simply means it isn't +0,+0 - it doesn't imply good or bad. Though in fact the term needs changing because we're moving towards prefixes being non-magical.

Also, "Iron" weapons are all Slay Demon? My Iron Sling shots can now whomp Demons! but... that wouldn't be readily apparent, right? and Iron is known upon pickup.

Iron gives a weak slay (x2), but you're right that it shouldn't be known upon pickup. I can't reproduce this, so I'm guessing this was because the shots were (+0,+0), and it was actually known after pseudo - this is now fixed.

Hobbitish is not ID'ing upon pickup, as I Believe it should.

As with Rusty above, Hobbitish gives a small to-hit bonus, so will not ID until you swing with it.

And now I've had a sword fully ID as of enchantment on it's own- It does show as Average when I squelch it though. (Since it has a +0,+0, I imagine.)

Yes, fixed.

Many thanks for the reports.

[Magnate]

Yeah, I know this particular approach isn't all that great, but I hope you see that something less misleading would be necessary here. Someone else can probably think of something more flavourful.

Well, I think there are really only three possible permutations of affixes and naming:

1. We list all affixes in the name. Accurate - yes. Flavourful - yes. Practical - no.

2. We list none of the affixes in the name, and all on the 'I'nspect screen. (Whether or not we use a generic affix to indicate the presence of real affixes is kind of irrelevant.) Accurate - yes. Flavourful - no. Practical - yes.

3. We list only a manageable number of affixes in the name (e.g. one prefix and one suffix). Accurate - no. Flavourful - yes. Practical - yes.

So far I've chosen flavour over accuracy (because the latter can be found in the 'I'nspect screen) - but if anyone can think of a way of ticking all three boxes, please say.

[mumbles]

You could generate names for a certain combinations of, or power level of abilities, like in diablo. Just like we have westernesse and gondolin weapons.
Like a grand masters sword of demonology or something

[Magnate]

You could generate names for a certain combinations of, or power level of abilities, like in diablo. Just like we have westernesse and gondolin weapons.
Like a grand masters sword of demonology or something

I have considered this, but it's actually really hard to tick the accuracy box (which is the only reason to do it). There are about 200 affixes (and will probably end up being more), and we'd need a logic which came up with a name for every possible permutation. Otherwise we'd be no better off than we are now - maybe the name describes the item fully, maybe it doesn't.

The simplest way to do this is to have a list like this:

Great == two prefixes
Awesome == three prefixes
etc.
of Power == two suffices
of Immense Power == three suffices
of Vast Power == four suffices
etc.

But I really don't like that idea. I think that the names would need to provide some indication of what the affixes were about, i.e. whether they were stat-related, or attack bonuses, or defence boosts, or resists etc. Otherwise we're losing both accuracy and flavour.

Personally I think it's better to shift our mindset to the idea that an item's name doesn't necessarily tell us everything about it - that's what the 'I'nspect command is for. But I'm open to suggestions - if anyone wants to have a go at coding an affix naming matrix, providing flavourful names for different combinations of affixes, I'm happy to try it out - that's what v4 is for. I think you'd want at least two or three dozen possible names, given the number of items you find in a game - otherwise things would feel a bit bland.

And JFTR, Diablo didn't do this. Items in Diablo which used affix names only had one prefix and one suffix, so the problem didn't arise. Rare items in D2 had up to three prefixes and three suffices, but they were given random meaningless names which bore no relation to the affixes - flavour over accuracy again.

[Nomad]

So far I've chosen flavour over accuracy (because the latter can be found in the 'I'nspect screen) - but if anyone can think of a way of ticking all three boxes, please say.

Okay, here's my overcomplicated idea:

* Have a file called ego_names, which would be similar to ego_themes, except it would be checklists of affixes of which, if your item has at least two, it acquires a collective name for them. E.g. if an ego has two or more resistances, it gains the name 'Elemental', if it has two or more physical property affixes, it gains the name 'of Craftmanship', two or more slays/*slays* it gets 'Cruel', etc.

* If you generate a non-themed ego, run an array of its affixes against that names file. Where you can replace some of them with a collective name, do so. E.g. "Resist Acid, Resist Lightning, of Stealth" goes in, "Elemental, of Stealth" comes out.

* Rank your final set of names, and pick the best prefix and best suffix to use. If there are any other names still left over, append a third generic affix such as 'Enhanced' or 'Superior' to indicate "more to be seen on the Inspect screen".

So to borrow fizzix's example, maybe you generate a Broad Sword that has the affixes "Sharp, Diamond, Elven, Slay Troll, Slay Orc, of Acid".

You run that against ego_names to see if you can replace any of those with collective names, and get "of Craftmanship, Cruel, of Acid". You pick the best prefix (only one, so easy) and the best suffix (arguably Craftmanship, since it's a collective name) and since you still have a third affix left over, append 'Superior' as well.

So what comes out at the end of the naming process is a 'Superior Cruel Broad Sword of Craftmanship'. Not perfect, but more accurate than 'Elven Broad Sword of Acid' as it might get under the current scheme.

(Of course, this is easy for me to suggest when I'm not a coder. )

[Magnate]

Well, if anyone codes that up and submits a pull request I'll happily review and merge it. But it seems to me like a lot of work for little gain, because we *still* end up with the name not guaranteed to tell you accurately about the item!

But I can see that it could be considered an improvement over the current somewhat random names, so very happy to try it out.

In other news, I've just updated all the graf-???.prf files, so v4 should now work fine with all four tile sets. Thanks to Nomad for making that simple.

[Derakon]

Regardless of the option chosen, we're going to have to find some way to guide the player to the 'I'nspect command, because it's even more important than it used to be.

[Nomad]

There's a bug with making character dumps; the details of objects aren't 'printing' fully to the text file, so you only get the first letter of each line, like this:

h) a Cloak of Shielding [1,+7]
     B
     
     P
     
i) a Tough Large Shield of Resist Acid [5,+3]
     D
     
     P
     C

[bio_hazard]

Regardless of the option chosen, we're going to have to find some way to guide the player to the 'I'nspect command, because it's even more important than it used to be.

ToME 2 had a help message when you stepped on any object for the first time (I think I'm remembering that right).

I've got to say that I like seeing tutorial modes in games (like ToME 4, Crawl, etc). If you don't want a few options (Priest, fighter, mage), provide one option for a tutorial, maybe a ranger or rogue who will eventually get magic.

[Nomad]

Squelch/ID issues in the latest build (02dd343):

I picked up a Long Sword, it pseudo-ID'd as {magical} and auto-squelched itself. By unsquelching and wield-testing I was able to discover it was Cheap, which was obviously why the "squelch bad" setting worked on it.

I had seen a Cheap item before, so I'm assuming rune-based ID did its job and I 'knew' it was bad, but for some reason it didn't become explicitly identified until I wielded it in combat.

[Magnate]

There's a bug with making character dumps; the details of objects aren't 'printing' fully to the text file, so you only get the first letter of each line, like this:

h) a Cloak of Shielding [1,+7]
     B
     
     P
     
i) a Tough Large Shield of Resist Acid [5,+3]
     D
     
     P
     C

Oooh, that's new. And it hasn't been reported in V. I wonder what's causing it. Will look into it - thanks for the report.

EDIT: I can't reproduce this. Can anyone else duplicate this behaviour? Nomad - can you attach a savefile which will (on your system) generate this kind of dump?

[Magnate]

Squelch/ID issues in the latest build (02dd343):

I picked up a Long Sword, it pseudo-ID'd as {magical} and auto-squelched itself. By unsquelching and wield-testing I was able to discover it was Cheap, which was obviously why the "squelch bad" setting worked on it.

I had seen a Cheap item before, so I'm assuming rune-based ID did its job and I 'knew' it was bad, but for some reason it didn't become explicitly identified until I wielded it in combat.

Runes != affixes. A "rune" is a symbol for an object property, e.g. slow digestion, feather falling, slay troll, extra blows etc. There are no runes for +hit, +dam, +ac, +dice or +sides. So all the affixes that only modify those things (all the cheap/sharp qualities, and all the hobbitish/giant types etc.) will not ID via rune-based ID. Dice mods are obvious - you can tell instantly if a longsword is 2d4 or 3d5 rather than the usual 2d5. But hit/dam mods are not obvious, which is why Cheap doesn't ID until you attack with it.

But I think perhaps it is time to separate {magical} into {good} and {poor}, since (i) these affixes are non-magical anyway and (ii) you probably can tell by looking at an item which side of bog-standard it is.

If we do this, the expected behaviour would be that it pseudos as {poor} and then auto-squelches - or pseudos as {good} and doesn't.

Anyone want to argue for a different approach to pseudo and squelch of weapons?