[Un] Unangband 0.6.2-gold released

[Bandobras]

Maybe I remember it wrong, but didn't Gandalf enter Dol Guldur during 'The Hobbit' after he left Bilbo and the dwarves and before he returned after Smaug's death?
I think after Gandalf entered Dol Guldur he did also know that the Necromancer was in fact Sauron.

Oh, yes, you are right. That explains why entering Dol Guldur is so important in Un, while conquering it is not. But this also means entering Dol Guldur is a part of "The Hobbit" plot, while conquering it is on the boundary between the plots. In fact, IIRC driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur moved him to Mordor, and this feels more a part of LotR storyline.

Edit: But this contradicts the current Un behaviour, where even entering Dol Guldur changes some locations to their LotR setup. Hmm...

[lenochware]

Fountains are 0 rather than O

I seee...! With my font it looks exactly the same.

Bug report: I had problem when I enter level 2 of Mirkwood dungeon - game crashes. (WinXP, 0.6.2 gold) It just froze for a few seconds when I press ">", harddisk LED blinks, and after that, game window disappears. 2 hours of playing was gone.... Maybe it would be useful add "autosave when entering new level" option - something similar already exists in ZAngband.

btw. I like new terrain features - transparent ice walls, bushes with thorns...etc.etc. - great!

I dont't understand how rune stones works. I had spell "Frost bolt" on one rune stone, but it disappears after a while. Is it normal?

I got a message "You feel very well" after I drink from some fountain - maybe it would be interesting rename these fountains after tried on "Fountain of health" or something like that... similar like with trying potion.

I saw somewhere stone well ">" (entrace to the next level) : maybe it would be fun if some entraces goes to harder levels than other - and it would be noticed after doing (r)ecall on ">" ..?

[Fede]

I'd say it's the optional "ultra-ending" of the Hobbit plot. Plus, entering it marks the transision from 'The Hobbit' times to LotR times. Of course the implementation of this idea could be improved. In particular, it should probably be the hardest location of the North. Perhaps it is --- Caradhras is totally optional and everybody knows it's unwise to go there. What else is there? The Balrog of Moria? He's deep down and you can't even get there without a map. OTOH, I'm not sure if conquering Dol Guldur is a big enough event wrt game-play --- you don't get a lof of treasure, not many locations are opened (any?), etc. I understand Sauron came back into play very soon after being forced out of Dol Guldur, but still, that seemed a glorius victory at the time to those aware of the battle.

Maybe I remember it wrong, but didn't Gandalf enter Dol Guldur during 'The Hobbit' after he left Bilbo and the dwarves and before he returned after Smaug's death?
I think after Gandalf entered Dol Guldur he did also know that the Necromancer was in fact Sauron.

[Bandobras]

The only thing that I'm not really sure about is Dol Guldur - I don't recall much about it in the books and Wikipedia doesn't say much about it other than it was "south of Mirkwood".

I'd say it's the optional "ultra-ending" of the Hobbit plot. Plus, entering it marks the transision from 'The Hobbit' times to LotR times. Of course the implementation of this idea could be improved. In particular, it should probably be the hardest location of the North. Perhaps it is --- Caradhras is totally optional and everybody knows it's unwise to go there. What else is there? The Balrog of Moria? He's deep down and you can't even get there without a map. OTOH, I'm not sure if conquering Dol Guldur is a big enough event wrt game-play --- you don't get a lof of treasure, not many locations are opened (any?), etc. I understand Sauron came back into play very soon after being forced out of Dol Guldur, but still, that seemed a glorius victory at the time to those aware of the battle.

The dungeons of Angmar & Angband seem a little tacked-on; they don't really fit into the theme of the rest of the game. Are there any ideas on fleshing out Angband a bit more?

Apart of shortening it? Who knows... Actually I think Angband is a kind of an in-joke. Just see the description. But I think, realistically, the ruins of Angmar where still there at the times. After Sauron returned (trigger it by the descruction of Dol Guldur? or by entering?) the Angmar's ghosts were roused in Barrow Downs and elsewhere, probably at Angmar itself, too. About Angband, I'm not sure. Was is under the ocean or north and west of Angmar under the ice?

Maybe taking some of the events from the Silmarillion (though I read that so long ago, I don't really remember if it would be suitable)? I guess part of the problem is the inconsistencies in timelines...

Indeed. And the area of Silmarillion events is mostly west of the current map, mostly under the ocean. With The Hobbit and LotR we have the same geographical arena and only a few decades of time discrepancy. On the other hand, if you have the other-planes dungeons (Numenor, Temple and Castle, which I'd substitute with some real South Middle Earth locations for exactly this reason) you can also have a dimensional gate to Silmarillion or a game prelude, mode (a la Thrall mode) or ending located in Silmarillion.

Morgoth was long gone by the time the events in the LotR roll around.

Well, not quite. Yes, he was banished from Middle Earth (and even Arda), but having a big part in its design, eventual creation and then spending a long time corrupting it, he was in some strange way present. It is said that Arda was Mortgoth's "One Ring" and that without Arda he was even less powerful than Sauron without his One Ring.

I agree the idea that he somehow returned to Middle Earth after the LotR times is cheesy. But I can easily stand the idea that a hero upon finding an intact, hidden part of Angband (Silmarillion says there were some left) via some half-magical portals in the ruins of Angmar (which is, in turn, a real geographic location) can somewhat contact and defeat Morgoth or his shadow or something in the Void or projected from the Void, etc. As long as we don't try to place "Angband" on the map or explain Morgoth presence in-game, I don't mind the anachronism. If an arbiatrary bunch of lesser heroes from Silmarillion were resurrected I'd be incredulous, but semi-gods/angels/demons may occasionally break the rules.

[andrewdoull]

Any chance to get a "real" debug version which works with M$ Windwbugger soon ?

I would really like to continue playing .. but crashing every 3rd green bat isn't really fun ..

I'll see what I can do. Unfortunately, my only free time is spent travelling at the moment.
(Written on a bus)

Andrew

[Bandobras]

Good work. Some of this is arbitrary, of course, so I will share my thoughts, too.

# The LotR has a slightly harder route
10:Maggot's farm (2-6)
58:Brandywine Ferry (0)
53:Buckland (0)
54:Old Forest (6-10)
55:Bombadil's house (11-12)
38:Barrow-downs (4-23)

Here, I feel Barrow-downs belongs to the next group. My current feeling is the LotR prelude is just a short detour, sight-seeing, flavour, and a very hard area early on (so that hardcore players starting a new character can avoid getting bored). Then Barrow-downs are too long and too easy in their current form.

OTOH, I think the farm and the Bombadil fight is hard enough to fit the mood. Old Forest too, most often, now that mushrooms almost do not appear there, but you don't have to fight through Old Forest, which makes it perhaps too easy. Another guardian at the bottom? Move Old Man Willow to the bottom but remove his teleportation spell and make him easier to detect (otherwise he is a nightmare to track down on a large level)? Or perhaps make the bottom level small, instead of the top one? Also, Buckland is too large and too tame for a special and hard area you are supposed to clear quickly. If you want to fit Barrow-downs, which may be a good idea, I think it has to be changed and probably made inaccessible from Bree. Then rebalance the remaining Bree dungeons...

To be continued...

[Big Al]

I was thinking of reordering the dungeons in dungeons.txt so that they're in at least some kind of logical order, instead of the random mess of numbers they are now. (It'll make the dungeon knowledge screen a lot easier to find things, I figure, and provide a bit more structure to tell the player where to go once they've finished the Hobbit campaign.) It's grouped by location and in approximately the order I figure most people visit the locations and approximately order by depth. Also, order it so that any location that gets replaced by another location (eg. Hobbiton -> Hobbiton in ruins -> Hobbiton rebuilt) stay in the same order when replaced. I came up with the following list so far. Any suggestions? (Ignore the numbers before the colons - that's the order it's in right now.)

0:Nowhere Town (0)

# All the stories start in the Shire
1:Hobbiton (0)
	35:Hobbiton, in ruins (59)
	36:Hobbiton, rebuilt (0)

# The Hobbit novel has the easy route
57:East Road (0)

# The LotR has a slightly harder route
10:Maggot's farm (2-6)
58:Brandywine Ferry (0)
53:Buckland (0)
54:Old Forest (6-10)
55:Bombadil's house (11-12)
38:Barrow-downs (4-23)

# But they all get to Bree & Rivendell eventually
11:Bree (0-4)
39:Trollshaws Forest (4-6)
56:Midgewater Marshes (10-17)
12:Weathertop (17-30)
13:Ford to Rivendell (8)
2:Rivendell (0)

# Conclusion of the Hobbit...
3:Misty Mountains (5-13)
4:house of Beorn (15)
63:Woodmen Village (10-13)
5:Mirkwood the Great (13-26)
6:Lake-town (0)
	8:ruins of Lake-town (17)
	9:the Dale (0)
7:Lonely Mountain (26-36)
	47:Five Armies (30)
	42:vaults of Erebor (21)

# Back to the LotR - through Moria
59:the door to Moria (20)
14:west Moria entrance (6-24)
	16:west gates of Moria (33-36)
60:the mines of Moria (22-30)
15:east Moria entrance (13-24)
	17:east gates of Moria (36)
	61:Khazad-Dum (30-40)

# Or alternate to Moria through the mountains
52:Redhorn pass (7-33)
	41:Caradhras (20-40)

# Or alternate way around south
64:Dunland (9)
	65:Dunland in war rage (22-37)
48:Dol Guldur (36-48)
40:Isengard (3-33)
	23:Isengard, war-ready (21-40)
	66:emptied Isengard (30-45)
21:Edoras (8-27)
	22:Hornburg (22-40)

# Misc Forests
18:Lothlorien (0)
19:Parth Galen (20-40)
20:Fangorn Forest (20)
	37:Fangorn, aflame (27)
	62:the Ent Moot (21)

# Gondor/Rohan
29:Paths of the Dead (48-53)
28:Minas Tirith (0-48)
30:Pelennor Fields (43)
31:Mount Mindolluin (3)

25:Ithilien (20-21)
26:Minas Morgul (42-57)
27:Cirith Ungol (42-48)

# Mordor
24:Dead Marshes (41)
49:Morannon (40-53)
50:Udun (54-58)
51:Isenmouthe (55)
32:Plains of Gorgoroth (48-54)
33:Orodruin (54-59)
34:Barad-dur (48-59)

# Misc planar dungeons
44:Numenor (35-48)
45:Elemental Evil (21-40)
46:Crystal Castle (30-45)

# 67 unused
# 68 unused

# Angband
43:ruins of Angmar (30-51)
69:Angband (0-60)
70:the West (0)

The only thing that I'm not really sure about is Dol Guldur - I don't recall much about it in the books and Wikipedia doesn't say much about it other than it was "south of Mirkwood".

The dungeons of Angmar & Angband seem a little tacked-on; they don't really fit into the theme of the rest of the game. Are there any ideas on fleshing out Angband a bit more? Maybe taking some of the events from the Silmarillion (though I read that so long ago, I don't really remember if it would be suitable)? I guess part of the problem is the inconsistencies in timelines...Morgoth was long gone by the time the events in the LotR roll around. It would be sweet to make a third campaign (in addition to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings) about the events in the First Age though (eg. the destruction of the lamps/trees of Valar, etc, culminating with the final battle with Morgoth in the War of Wrath in Angband).

[Bandobras]

Any chance to get a "real" debug version which works with M$ Windwbugger

I have no clue how to make one, even if that's possible on Linux.

[Arralen]

Any chance to get a "real" debug version which works with M$ Windwbugger soon ?

I would really like to continue playing .. but crashing every 3rd green bat isn't really fun ..

[andrewdoull]

Regarding cleaning up texts and other things: I was also a little confused by same symbols for dangerous/harmless things or monsters/items (I am playing text version). For example now I am in level with many ogres "O" and fountains "O". It's not problem, when I know about it, but it would be better, in my opinion, keep letters only for monsters, if it is possible..

Fountains are 0 rather than O (zero rather than letter O). Maybe consider a font which distinguishes the two of these more readily.

Andrew

[lenochware]

<i>Perhaps only mark those that are, say 3 levels OOD?</i>

Yes, it sounds perfect! btw. Nice colors in last version, I like it. btw. I like possibility get info about monster by checking of his corpse - great idea.

Yes, I know that there is shortcut for repeating of level feeling. I just thought that it would be logical add it to searching..maybe.

Regarding cleaning up texts and other things: I was also a little confused by same symbols for dangerous/harmless things or monsters/items (I am playing text version). For example now I am in level with many ogres "O" and fountains "O". It's not problem, when I know about it, but it would be better, in my opinion, keep letters only for monsters, if it is possible..

[bonzo]

Can't they or is it only a greyed out option? If so, this a known problem with suggested classes (I thought it was fixed in gold, BTW).

Ahhh, I see now. It was not available during one of my first games when I chose "Have played Angband before", but it is greyed out, but still selectable, when I choose "Have played Unangband before". Thanks.

[Bandobras]

New [Un] player here just wanting to chime in and say thanks a ton for all of the obvious hard work being done on this variant.

You are welcome. And please tell us about your adventures as you go along.

Just wondering why Wood Elves can not pick Archer for their class

Can't they or is it only a greyed out option? If so, this a known problem with suggested classes (I thought it was fixed in gold, BTW).

It will be good for me show points for killing also for unknown (not killed yet) monsters. I think that it is good basic information about how monster is dangerous.

I remember now TOME shows monster level for all monsters, already when targeting a monster. I'm not sure if it's not too technical and if it does not spoil the surprise. But I agree marking with color, if the monster is OOD would be nicely scary and informative, without spoiling the player. Already when targetting. OTOH in gold many monsters are OOD (sometimes most on the level), so this would not be rare enough. Perhaps only mark those that are, say 3 levels OOD?

In fact it is sometimes a little confucing for me, because there are too many texts (also in items/features description).. There are a lot of not very important informations (at least I think so) like "You will remember this on your map. You will stop running next to this. You can do x with this for nothing".

I agree. It should be pruned and compacted. Perhaps another key to show the whole, unabridged info on a separate page, with nice formattin, as you propose.

So what about possibility don't show this text like normal ingame messages, but after presing "s"earch few times show room decription, or maybe repeat level feeling too?

Level feeling is repeated with ^F. It'd be great to repeat the room feeling as well.

[Bandobras]

I will keep it in mind for the future when I get moved and settled in that I may try to dive into this, but right now all I can do is make suggestions.

No pressure, really. I"m not sure about UnAndrew, who is the real maintainer, but I'm only a humble sidekick and I feel totally relaxed about Un. Even when I loudly groan on the forum at some newly discovered crash due to my code mangling, I'm still having fun. Really. It's enough to imagine the same happening in real life with commercial code and a pointy-haired boss on the same continent, and I feel the luckiest guy under the sun instantly.

By asking for volunteers I was just signalling that a) that's an idea I like, b) I probably won't have time for this in the nearest year or a decade, c) it seems doable by an inspired vice-sidekick, d) if you really care about this issue, press on, if not, I'm too relaxed to care.

Is there a better way of making suggestions or reporting bugs than posting here?

For obvious and not easy to fix bugs, the better place is Berlios. For anything else, forum is perfect.

EDIT: Also, in the Lotr quest, where are you supposed to go next after defeating Smaug? I tried to go back to Hobbiton, retracing Bilbo's path, but that didn't work. Are you supposed to tackle Dol Guldur or maybe Saruman next?

You are supposed to find a way south and it's not easy. There are many ways, but you only need to discover one and break through... Hint: maps may help with some of them as well as with getting back.

[baddog73]

@Bandobras: About volunteering, I understand how you feel. I currently don't have time for another project (and one I know so little about, aside from gameplay.) I will keep it in mind for the future when I get moved and settled in that I may try to dive into this, but right now all I can do is make suggestions.

Is there a better way of making suggestions or reporting bugs than posting here?


EDIT: Also, in the Lotr quest, where are you supposed to go next after defeating Smaug? I tried to go back to Hobbiton, retracing Bilbo's path, but that didn't work. Are you supposed to tackle Dol Guldur or maybe Saruman next?