[Un]angband 0.6.2 beta 2 has been released!

[andrewdoull]

Ok, I can see some logic in that - with the hands ful of instruments, you can only throw weapons from the quiver without changing equipment.
Yet, some bards could be quite formidable melee fighters - not all of them have the instrument speciality, btw - and the numbers in p_class.txt tell a different story anyway:

throw / melee / bows

Warrior
20:20:20
50:50:50

Ranger
30:10:30
50:30:50

Thief
40:20:20
60:40:30  <== Thief is actually the best a throwing !!

Bard
20:20:0
30:40:10  <== Bard can't use "shots" and throws only so-n-so.
                    Magic ment to make up for this?

I'll leave others to comment on the numbers - but bardic throwing could do with a boost.

And if bards are supposed to throw - why is the first spellbook (N:543f Chords; level 5) full of "shots"? I would suggest replacing all the shots with blows (again - 'twas that way some version(s) before) and placing blows and throws into both the 1st and 2nd book (N:544f Harmonies) in equal shares, roughly, depending on levels.

Btw., there's something strange about the songbooks anyway:
- both low-level book range from very low level to 40. Yet, you start with the collection of "shots" which is mostly useless to a bard. Either, sort the spells by level, or make on "of blows" and the other "of throws" - and both available from start.
- 544 says its missing 2 songs in the slots o) and p)
- song "Sanctuary" is (lvl9) and lists "Scare Monster" (lvl5) as prerequisit.
Yet, it's more like a "Scare Monster" boosted to range-2 combined with the spell "Sleep MonsterS" (lvl 13) reduced to range-1 - and therefore should at least be of the same level ?!

The bard spell list possibly needs a good going over... I'll have a look.

Regards,

Andrew Doull

[andrewdoull]

How does this look for a bard revision? Note that the middle spellbook is new, and is roughly about as common as e.g. Magic Book of Conjuring.

[Bandobras]

throw / melee / bows

1. Actually, the skill is very important at the start, but other things are important in the long run as well: style (can be a huge difference), stats, buffs (spells/items). Of course all this needs balancing and new ideas are welcome.
2. I'd also compare directly only non-magic classes, because the other have a big advantage through spells that cannot or cannot easily be substituted by consumables.
3. I assume each class (except archers, mages, some paladins and very rare cases of other classes) has both melee offense and ranged offense of some kind, the former often augmented by style and magic buffs, the latter being not only shots and throws, but including offensive magic, as well.

Hmm... my thinking was rogues melee, rangers shoot, bards throw...

It's good to know, but because of 3., I'd rather say "rogues melee well and throw worse, rangers shoot well and throw and melee worse, bards throw and hinder with magic well and melee worse". Generally this is not true, but with proper style choices it can be true. Each of the three classes has styles and stat choices that affect them greatly, e.g. depending on style ranger can be best with shots or melee (never with throws, regardless of the skills, because no throws style is permitted).

But let's start with non-magic classes (throw / melee / bows; first line is starting, second is bonus per 10 levels).

Warrior
20:20:20
#has best styles, so enough starting power
50:50:50
#very versatile, bad stealth, so tank approach

Thief
40:20:20
#worse styles, so throwing helps at the start
60:40:30
#the sneaky throws and offensive magic devices are better than Warrior's, better stealth, better other skills, hit and run, though melee still very good

Archer
00:10:50
#only shots reliable at the start, but they are really perfect, even without great styles
30:20:60
#can do only one thing, but does it best (styles!); throws catch up somewhat, melee slow to build up --- a non-magic counterpart of Mage: only ranged offence and similarly not stealthy. Actually stealth and the other skills are so low that Archer may be underpowered. But then, statistically, most big M deaths are to launchers, and critical shots due to skill and stats are (or should be) quite pronounced in Un. Who needs more?

Now, Priest, Istari, Shaman and Mage are exceptions. Warrior-Mage has worse melee than Warrior, offset by various utility and buff spells and pathetic shots and throws offset by magical offense. Ranger is a weaker Archer with spells, Artisan (think: Rouge) is a weaker Thief with spells, Paladin is a stronger Priest without some spells and with weakest ranged offense of all classes due to the spell limitation. What remains is Bard --- he seems to be quite unique and very versatile due to his spells (even offensive ones!) and styles, with great melee, decent throws and only shots decidedly bad..

Let's see if I was right about Rangers and Artisans:

Ranger
30:10:30
50:30:50
Archer
00:10:50
30:20:60

Skill-wise Ranger seems better than Archer, but specialization is worth more than the doubled ranged skills. Better Ranger's melee agrees with his more versatile character, but together with spells indeed makes him much more powerful than the Archer. Not in the final battle, though, if enough buff items are collected by the Archer...

Artisan
40:20:20
50:40:30
Thief
40:20:20
60:40:30

The skills agree and thief is nicely specialized in his sneaky ranged offense (we should steal from O noise reduction for throws with high throwing skills and/or sleeping opponents, etc.). He has stealth considerably better from the already great Artisan's stealth and much better styles, but this is still not enough especially that the Artisan has much better HP starting stats. I guess Artisan styles should be boosted, but Thief should have better melee skill to agree with UnAndrew "rogues melee" paradigm. Then his melee will be as good as Warrior's, with worse shots and better throws. Wonderful stealth then makes him much better than a Warrior --- how to solve that?

[Bandobras]

EDIT: Also, bug: it seems that all mouse clicks in the knowledge screens are off by two lines down and a dozen or so character to the right.

They are OK for me on Linux, but please report.

EDIT: Are there any non-average torches? If not then why not make them automatically identified? It's kind of weird to have two stacks of identical looking torches in my inventory: one stack bought from a store and one stack found in the dungeon.

Good questions. UnAndrew, what are the plans about torches?

EDIT: Also, the "rest to recover stats" command doesn't seem to be documented anywhere. From experimentation, it only ever recovers stats if you are gorged when you start resting - was this intentional?

Nope. You must have regeneration or speed or be a troll or something else quickening digestion.

When I was experimenting with it, I would eat until I was full, then rest until I was weak from hunger, over and over again, and never gain any stats. But if I eat just a little bit more (to the point of gorged), then a gain a stat point every time I rest. It seems that this is a bit overpowered IMO - for 12 gp (ie. three food rations), I can recover one of all my stats.

But for this you have to find a safe spot, which is very hard deep down. Probably this should be penalized further somewhat, e.g. generate monsters during that time or generate faster if it's already the case. Or slow the player for several turns after awakening. Also, visiting DL1 dungeon just to recover stats should not be possible. Perhaps only recover stats on the deepest visited level (how to explain this?). Ideas welcome.

EDIT: I was experimenting more with this recover stats feature and found a weird bug:

Please report.

EDIT: Sorry for so many questions, but one more: Why do some weapons or armour pseudo (as a Maia Istari) as {uncursed} and some things pseudo as {good/very good/great}?

Sometimes your better and sometimes your worse pseudo-id kicks in.

Am I understanding this correctly:
{good} - low +todam, +tohit or +ac
{very good} - medium +todam, +tohit or +ac
{great} - high +todam, +tohit or +ac
{excellent} - ego item
{superb} - high ego item
{uncursed} - any of the above?

Yes, though I'm not sure about superb.

EDIT: Also, why is it that when you down *down* the stairs from the Elvenking's hall's (level 24) to the Storage Cellars (level 25), you arrive on another set of *down* stairs?

A bug, because towns are rarely deep down. Please report. Shouldn't be hard to fix, but I'd swear I fixed it several times already. Perhaps I fixed it for the town atop Weathertop and it broke the town down below...

I hope I've caught up with everything reported during my wilderness travel. If I missed something please bring it up on Berlios or here.

[Pete Mack]

I have one question about this. Traditionally, throwing has been much weaker than archery because there's no damage bonus from the launcher on thrown weapons, and seeker arrows have more dice than most (all?) throwing weapons.

With a good bow, you are likely to get (20+10+10)*5 base damage, or 200 damage for an unbranded shot.

For thrown weapons, the bonuses are lower, the multiplier is often lower, and usually the base dice are lower as well. So how do you deal with this in UnAngband? Balanced weapons get an x4 multiplier, but that isn't nearly enough to offset the lack of launcher damage bonus.

[Bandobras]

For thrown weapons, the bonuses are lower, the multiplier is often lower, and usually the base dice are lower as well. So how do you deal with this in UnAngband? Balanced weapons get an x4 multiplier, but that isn't nearly enough to offset the lack of launcher damage bonus.

We do somehow, but I don't remember how. Anyway, it remains to be tested by some specialized brave soul tackling most guardians with throwing.

What I seem to remember are higher criticals than shots get, more throws per turn, trick trow (when you throw your wielded weapon and it returns after hitting some targets), auto-activation upon impact. Mostly the number of throws per turn, I guess, which goes up with DEX and slightly with STR and is boosted enormously via styles. The idea with more throws but less ammunition available is probably about an all-out attack by throwing before the monster can react v.s. phasing around and slowly wasting the opponent with shots. Also, throws should be more stealthy and deadlier if monster unaware/confued/blind/etc., but this is probably unimplemented. Also there is some non-weapon throwing stuff, e.g. hindering potions that thrown skillfully can affect a monster around a corner, moreover with 0% chance to miss it (big deal against evading monsters).

[Pete Mack]

We do somehow, but I don't remember how. Anyway, it remains to be tested by some specialized brave soul tackling most guardians with throwing.

What I seem to remember are higher criticals than shots get, more throws per turn, trick trow (when you throw your wielded weapon and it returns after hitting some targets), auto-activation upon impact. Mostly the number of throws per turn, I guess, which goes up with DEX and slightly with STR and is boosted enormously via styles. The idea with more throws but less ammunition available is probably about an all-out attack by throwing before the monster can react v.s. phasing around and slowly wasting the opponent with shots. Also, throws should be more stealthy and deadlier if monster unaware/confued/blind/etc., but this is probably unimplemented. Also there is some non-weapon throwing stuff, e.g. hindering potions that thrown skillfully can affect a monster around a corner, moreover with 0% chance to miss it (big deal against evading monsters).

The trouble with more throws per turn is that throwing ammo is less common than arrows. It comes in stacks of 3-7 instead of 15-30. I understand that it breaks very rarely. I think what I'd rather see is that your STR/SIZ/DEX should contribute to "launcher damage." Some big brute with long arms and high dex should get more powerful throws than a 98 pound weakling. (Think Randy Johnson and the pigeon. Now there was a real throwing weapon--a well-balanced Baseball of *Slay Animal*, branded with Heat.)

[andrewdoull]

Snipped lots of interesting analysis...

Thief should have better melee skill to agree with UnAndrew "rogues melee" paradigm. Then his melee will be as good as Warrior's, with worse shots and better throws. Wonderful stealth then makes him much better than a Warrior --- how to solve that?

Make a throwaway comment... I meant by "rogues melee" that of the new spells I added with the blow/throw/shoot boosting spells, that I had initially assigned the blow version of the spells to the Artisan class. I don't intend to disagree with the skill break down you've given: keep it as it is by all means. As you point out, improving thief melee may make the 'skill balance' across classes more problematic.

Andrew

[andrewdoull]

Re: Torches. Should be plain, always identified, always stack.

Only ego lanterns really make sense - I was thinking at one point about candles, which would be specialist torches, but they'd only be useful for a very short period.

Andrew

[Bandobras]

The trouble with more throws per turn is that throwing ammo is less common than arrows. It comes in stacks of 3-7 instead of 15-30. I understand that it breaks very rarely.

Yes and it's a deliberate balance decision. You have limited ammo, you choose a lone victim, make a sneaky, fast, all-out attack. If the attack kills the monster, you collect your ammo mostly intact, if not, you are in deep trouble, because the enemy manages to retaliate and moreover you are defenseless with all your precious ammo in the opponent's possession. Cannot stay, cannot flee. No sustained power, somewhat similarly as with offensive spellcasters, but much quicker action and they don't risk leaving books behind.

Trick throw of the wielded primary weapon in another matter, because the ammo returns, but it's tricky and makes you even more defenseless if you fail to catch the returning weapon. Yet another throwing option is a fast attack in 1/7 of the turn and hiding or escape. Yet another is throwing potions, flasks, etc.

I think what I'd rather see is that your STR/SIZ/DEX should contribute to "launcher damage." Some big brute with long arms and high dex should get more powerful throws than a 98 pound weakling.

Sounds reasonable (it's already somewhat reflected by critical shots). Other options is increasing multiplier with level, as in most other variants (started in O, I think). But I think out solution is most Unlike other variants and it'd be interesting to see what game-play styles develop from it.

[Arralen]

How does this look for a bard revision? Note that the middle spellbook is new, and is roughly about as common as e.g. Magic Book of Conjuring.

To be honest .. I don't really know .. I don't have a spell list, and I don't know the spells by heart ..
Might be missing a mighty/branded throw in the 2nd book ?

[Big Al]

BTW, doesn't the Cure Disease service work for you?

Whoops, yeah it does, thanks. That service didn't happen to be offered in the particular town that I was in at the time - I didn't think of it at the time because I was confusing it with Remove Curse or Healing.

I'll report/try to fix all those bugs once BerliOS is back up again.

Also, the game seems to crash for me every time Smeagol steals gold from me. This seems to be a pretty recent change. Here's some info when it crashed, it tells me:

Exception: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (0x0001)
Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE (0x0002) at 0x0000000e

Thread 0 Crashed:
0 net.thangorodrim.Unangband 0x00139fb5 project_p + 13489 (spells1.c:10007)
1 net.thangorodrim.Unangband 0x000b801a make_attack_normal + 1741 (melee1.c:1409)
2 net.thangorodrim.Unangband 0x000d88e8 process_move + 1616 (melee2.c:4943)
3 net.thangorodrim.Unangband 0x000df2d8 process_monster + 14621 (melee2.c:7096)
4 net.thangorodrim.Unangband 0x000e0bba process_monsters + 411 (melee2.c:7943)
5 net.thangorodrim.Unangband 0x00067de0 dungeon + 1857 (dungeon.c:3415)
6 net.thangorodrim.Unangband 0x00068795 play_game + 2015 (dungeon.c:3785)
7 net.thangorodrim.Unangband 0x00196756 AngbandGame + 423 (main-crb.c:2698)

[Bandobras]

If you play the SVN version, you have to add at line 8895 of spells1.c:

if (who > SOURCE_MONSTER_START)
{
/* Get the source monster */
m_ptr = &m_list[who];
}
Edit: now fixed in SVN.

P.S. Various potions of Cure Disease should also work for the minor diseases, I think. But yes, making sure all such disease has also a cheap and more flavourful cure would be nice...

[thorgot]

Though at first it's an awesome sight, it gets a bit repetitive seeing this on almost every level near the bottom of angband. I don't know how well this would work, but removing some uniques from the general pool and adding them as guardians on the last five levels would definitely spice it up. Anything to make Angband more than just 99 levels of diving would be appreciated.

[Nick]

Though at first it's an awesome sight, it gets a bit repetitive seeing this on almost every level near the bottom of angband.

How can you get tired of Great Wyrm of Nexuss and Great Wyrm of Chaoss?