Ironband...

[pav]

Unless this is different from Vanilla, there is no experience gained by digging gold.

[aeneas]

I've been giving Iron a try, and I posted a dump this morning. Haven't had a chance to play today so it is still up-to-date. I'm only at 1250', so my observations are kind of incomplete, but I'll offer them up. I'm pretty unspoiled for Iron, which is a bit of a switch for me- I've been playing V for a while, so I understand the game mechanics there pretty well.

Unless this is different from Vanilla, there is no experience gained by digging gold.

It is different, in that gold gives XP in Iron. The mechanic seems to be a bit more complicated than just gold to XP though- is there a threshold above which a drop has to be to give XP, at a given clvl/dlvl? I've noticed that after a certain point no copper or silver drops gave XP at all, even if the amount seemed like it should have been enough to do so.

On the whole I haven't been finding Iron very difficult so far, for an Ironman variant. But I've been playing conservatively and mostly clearing levels (skipped a troll pit, and left an arena level pretty early as it was just too dangerous). I expect it will get quite a bit harder once the dangerous stuff comes into depth though, and I imagine that must be soon, since I'm halfway through the dungeon. I lack rCold still, which may be a problem soon. But with Caspanion and the couple points I have put into Int recently the fail rate on the spell is fine now, so I just have to be careful.

A couple of things I've noticed: the revamped poison is pretty nasty at the earlier levels. Phase Spiders are a bit out of control, actually. The combination of tele_to, dodge, and poison may be a bit much, unless you intend that they be the most dangerous thing at their depth- without dodge it wouldn't be that big a deal. OTOH, if I'd known this I would have used a slot to collect neutralize poison potions. As it was I didn't want to burn !CCW on them, so for a while most of my mana was spent casting Cure Serious wounds while waiting for poisoning to go away. If I hadn't had that book by the point the Phase Spiders came into depth I don't think I would have survived.

I'm out of !CCW entirely atm. I've found a reasonable number, but I've had a couple of run-ins with Cold Hounds (I've found 10 !Speed, I think, haven't used any yet, and am down to 6, so that should give you an idea). At 1200' I entered a medium sized vault where I had to deal with a blinder a poisoner and a confuser at the same time, and wound up burning my last 3. I also had my most dangerous encounter so far, with a storm giant, and wound up having to quaff the only !Healing I've found so far- any other action would have risked death. I have Caspanion now, so my fear is blindness atm. I don't want to have to quaff !*Healing* to un-blind.

The biggest change I've noticed is the non-instantaneous escape spells. This really is a pretty big change, and forces very conservative play (this is also why I had to quaff !Healing- I had a turn or two to fail in, so I could have portaled, but I didn't have time to wait, and phasing would have risked death). I am close to having a decent fail on tele_other now though- that is instant right? Haven't tried it yet, as before Caspanion the fail rate was enough to make it useless. Anyway, I'm not sure what I think about that change yet- my impression is that it tends to make luck a bigger factor.

Sling ammo seems plentiful, arrows a bit less so, and bolts quite a lot rarer. For quite a while I was carrying three shooters so I could avoid using up bolts except when I really needed the stopping power. I also think I might have made a mistake in killing a light xbow of xtra might (+8 to_dam) for the current shooter... this would probably have been correct in V even with the increased ammo usage but since I can get more than one shot a round with a xbow... I don't understand the fractional blows system btw... is it like speed?

I was a bit surprised to see how hard Detect Monsters was to cast when I found that book, but I guess detect animals and detect evil cover most of the important stuff between them. I also noticed that it got a lot easier when I went up just a few Int points. It seems like a lot of the spell failure rates have really sharp Int breakpoints- just a couple points can take them from useless to reliable. I've been putting points into Int since I realized that.

Also, and I don't know if this is just the RNG, or if this is a normal thing, for a long time I couldn't find much useful. Then I went from 11 Luck to 16 Luck and passed 1000' and it seemed like every unique was dropping an artifact (Golfimbul dropped both the star and Throt). Is Luck that important? Depth? I haven't put any points into Luck, as I wasn't sure how important it was, but I've been using equipment to increase it... maybe I should use some points on it, though I think I need to start prioritizing Con now- some of those Perception->Con potions would come in handy.

Anyway, my dump is here http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=7296

I need to get rid of some stuff. I've been wielding dagmor, for the blows (with two rings of damage I figured that would be big). But, trying out Throt, the damage seems closer than I would have expected- paired with the % +ses in the character screen (which I find confusing... % of what?). Are you using some variabnt of O combat? I'm having a hard time figuring out which weapon is better without completely understanding the combat system.

Anyway, Caspanion is too good not to wear, but I've been getting FA from my body armor, so I need to switch weapons. I'm guessing Dagmor can go, though the two extra blows would be big with my current kit in V. Still leaves hard choices. Gwendohil would be clearly better than Gondolin if it had better slays, but without them... still, I'm hesitant to pitch anything with execute_undead when the final baddie is undead. Throt looks pretty nice actually, nicer than its store price indicates, though I'm still not sure about the effect of big dice in Iron. Totila is really heavy, and I can't wield it and keep FA at the moment, but I think it is a keeper. The Elec Immunity and brand along with execute dragon and the activation... very useful.

Anyway, there's more to say, but this post is already pretty long. Oh, btw, I did compile from source on Linux (saw something in the ladder about problems with that)... the one thing I had a problem with was the fonts. I have an npp installation though, so I copied the fonts.dir over and then things worked.

[Sealer]

Somehow the only reason why I don't play IRON'band is that I run out of fuel/food easily.

[camlost]

I don't know if this is a bug, a feature, or just mean.

"Your quiver is cursed" is a highly unpleasant message, especially when you the cursed ammo isn't even of the correct type. Is this correct behavior? Could I shoot the cursed ammo if I had the right launcher?

[Nick]

"Your quiver is cursed" is a highly unpleasant message, especially when you the cursed ammo isn't even of the correct type. Is this correct behavior? Could I shoot the cursed ammo if I had the right launcher?

My understanding of this (and assuming it is the same as NPP quiver behaviour) is that nothing from the quiver an be used until the curse is removed. This seems a little harsh for Iron.

[ekolis]

Not really, since in Ironband, pseudo-ID comes much quicker than in V... it just teaches you to be patient and not impulsively wield everything you find

[camlost]

pseudo-ID doesn't reveal curses in Iron... At least not anytime for me. Usually they pseudo as good.

[darkdrone]

Nick:

oddly i was able to fire the cursed pebbles from the sling .... might have to check back again though!

aeneas:

yes IIRC, Luck defines how often you get artifacts ...

[Nick]

Nick:

oddly i was able to fire the cursed pebbles from the sling .... might have to check back again though!

OK, I may well have that wrong - I'm basing it on discussion at TONPPAFS over a year ago... Other quivers (eg O/FA) have that you can fire or throw cursed quivered ammo and weapons, so maybe that's how it works. Or maybe I should wait for someone who actually knows something to answer, but why start now?

[Antoine]

> Somehow the only reason why I don't play IRON'band is that I run out of fuel/food easily.

You can usually avoid this with a bit of skill/luck - especially in the new (beta) version.

Eventually you'll find some Satisfy Hunger scrolls and the Phial or a Glowing Pebble and then you'll be fine. The dungeon spellbooks also have magic to create food and light.

A.

[Antoine]

Posted my first dump ever to the ladder. (Galamon)

As stated there, my likes:
The tiles - I hope other variants adopt this idea, or the ones from Sang. (Un especially)
The arrow-firing trap - quite a nice surprise.

Dislikes - none so far

Suggestions:
-Extinguishable/lightable lightsources, so I don't have to overflow my pack when I remove the lamp or torch.
-Get rid of the Gold display entirely, or (this could be a birth option) an in-dungeon supplies store or Black Market.
-I don't seem to be getting any XP for $$ I've found by digging treasure out of veins, though I suspect it's giving me values less than 1. What's the ratio of gold to XP?
-I want to run through sand.

I'm glad you're enjoying it.

Tiles and missile-firing traps are NPP features. I've realised that I've forgotten to put correct tiles for some new items and monsters though - will fix this in the next release.

You don't get XP for low treasure types once you reach a certain level. Copper, for instance, is worthless past the early game.

Running through sand - personally I agree! - this too is a NPP 'feature'.

A.

[Antoine]

I've been giving Iron a try, and I posted a dump this morning. Haven't had a chance to play today so it is still up-to-date. I'm only at 1250', so my observations are kind of incomplete, but I'll offer them up. I'm pretty unspoiled for Iron, which is a bit of a switch for me- I've been playing V for a while, so I understand the game mechanics there pretty well.

...

A couple of things I've noticed: the revamped poison is pretty nasty at the earlier levels. Phase Spiders are a bit out of control, actually.

...

I don't understand the fractional blows system btw... is it like speed?

...

Also, and I don't know if this is just the RNG, or if this is a normal thing, for a long time I couldn't find much useful. Then I went from 11 Luck to 16 Luck and passed 1000' and it seemed like every unique was dropping an artifact (Golfimbul dropped both the star and Throt). Is Luck that important? Depth? ...

...

I need to get rid of some stuff. I've been wielding dagmor, for the blows (with two rings of damage I figured that would be big). But, trying out Throt, the damage seems closer than I would have expected- paired with the % +ses in the character screen (which I find confusing... % of what?). Are you using some variabnt of O combat? I'm having a hard time figuring out which weapon is better without completely understanding the combat system.

...

Anyway, there's more to say, but this post is already pretty long. Oh, btw, I did compile from source on Linux (saw something in the ladder about problems with that)... the one thing I had a problem with was the fonts. I have an npp installation though, so I copied the fonts.dir over and then things worked.

Hi

Glad you're enjoying Iron and that the compile worked (eventually).

You may have a point about Phase SPiders. I'll consider toning them down a bit or push them a bit deeper. Collecting !NeutralisePoision helps (they are pretty common).

Fractional blows - 2.3 blows means you have a 70% chance of getting 2 blows in a round or 30% chance of getting 3 blows.

Melee damage - calculated as (base damage * (100+P+brand+slay)/100) where P is your 'damage %' as shown on the character screen. A 3d6 weapon with slay evil and 300% damage rating does 3d6 x (100 + 300 + 120)/100 - where 120 is the 'slay evil' bonus. Generally you want a heavy weapon, but not so heavy you get reduced blows.

Both Luck and depth are important for drops. You will find quite a lot of arts in the mid game - maybe not so many later on. This is one part of the game that still needs a lot of balancing - any suggestions appreciated.

Cheers
A.

[aeneas]

Hi

Glad you're enjoying Iron and that the compile worked (eventually).

You may have a point about Phase SPiders. I'll consider toning them down a bit or push them a bit deeper. Collecting !NeutralisePoision helps (they are pretty common).

I did enjoy it... and I am notoriously picky, and not known for tact, so that's high praise, from me . I think that the main problem is giving Phase Spiders evasion. I think that evade is a fundamentally bad mechanic, but it's not that significant unless it is paired with other threatening abilities- Phase Spiders are already dangerous in concert with other monsters because they can yank you into a vulnerable position, and the _much_ more dangerous poison adds to the problem. It's just really hard to avoid being badly poisoned by them because you can't kill them easily when they are next to you, and you can't avoid being next to them. Even !neutralize_poison only partly solves the problem, as the poison is so bad that it hurts you on a turn to turn basis- if you take a turn out to quaff you will just wind up poisoned the next turn. Still, without evade it wouldn't be a big deal.



Iron requires almost the opposite of my preferred play-style, so I am unlikely to adopt it as my major variant, but it's a nice (if very time-consuming) change of pace. I have two deep characters going now, one in Eddieband, and one in NPP, and little time to play them, but I will try, again, to win Iron. I won Quick on my first try, and I am a bit disappointed to have died so early with Baran... should mark him as dead. Came _that close_ to killing a Vampire Lord - in retrospect, it was amazingly dumb to fight him at that point... I just didn't want to abandon the level. I don't feel really able to comment on balance without a few games under my belt, and at least one winner- hopefully I will be able to offer better views in a while. Anyway- not to be redundant, but kill evade and I think the Spiders are OK.

Fractional blows - 2.3 blows means you have a 70% chance of getting 2 blows in a round or 30% chance of getting 3 blows.

Melee damage - calculated as (base damage * (100+P+brand+slay)/100) where P is your 'damage %' as shown on the character screen. A 3d6 weapon with slay evil and 300% damage rating does 3d6 x (100 + 300 + 120)/100 - where 120 is the 'slay evil' bonus. Generally you want a heavy weapon, but not so heavy you get reduced blows.

OK- that explains a lot. I had figured the basics out by watching damage and blows, but it's nice to know the details- I wasn't hallucinating when I saw Throt doing better with less blows, and I should have tossed Dagmor earlier. I have such mixed feelings about the various combat systems that I can't say much, generally, about how I feel about that system, but... in Iron I suppose it makes sense as there isn't a defined stat-gain. In V, I think there is a much better argument for the current system than most people credit.

Both Luck and depth are important for drops. You will find quite a lot of arts in the mid game - maybe not so many later on. This is one part of the game that still needs a lot of balancing - any suggestions appreciated.

Cheers
A.

Well- as I said, I think I need to win Iron at least once before I can really give good advice. Good Ironman, or Ironband, play is so much more time consuming than V that I might have to wait a while before I do that. But, based on one character (plus two others on the scoreboard who died very young, of poison, and of forgetting to set an HP warning ) I'd tone down the poison a bit, and look hard at which mobs have evade.

I don't like Luck as a significant attribute, but I can't claim that that is a matter of good or bad design. It's just a preference (though a very strong one) on my part. In fact, I'm guessing that Iron is not likely to be a favorite of mine, long term, mainly for reasons of temperament and preference. I don't mean that as a criticism though... playing Iron has certainly helped me think about some questions in mainline V.

You've certainly done a lot of work and thought a lot about these things- it's interesting to see variants that question _everything_. I think Iron is still raw, but pretty successful, as far as I got anyway . Even if it weren't immediately playable, it would be a valuable comment on Angband... so, many thanks for making it, and I hope that there are some people out there who are are suited to it to such a degree that it becomes their main variant- it would be interesting to see how it evolved with the input of some fanatical players.

EDIT: If there's one thing I would recommend for variant maintainers it is that you should pick up autoconf for Linux/Unix. I was a professional C programmer for quite a few years, so I can generally fix a broken compile, one way or another, if I feel like it... I have to admit that I don't, always. I am, for instance, not afraid to copy NPP's font files into your font directory because I know the provenance of your variant . OTOH, I'd like to try Steam, but thあr知ヴぇI got seems to be missing some header files- I'll let Courtney know (I think s/he must be a cousin, if very distant, so it is the least I can do), but I have very little desire to dig through the makefiles trying to figue out what went wrong- instead I played Eddieband.

EDIT #2: also, since it was 2 weeks ago I have forgotten some things about Iron's magic so... for Iron, wands are only useful if you find them before you find the book with their spell- not a big problem, and that still makes them more useful than V's wands, but I kept some too long. But the, errr... what do you call them? totems? I forget now, but they need to be reduce mana costs proportionate to the spell cost to be useful for very long. Reducing the cost of an expensive spell by 1 mana is not very useful, if you compare it to an inventory slot... I carried a couple against my best instincts, to test- my best instincts were correct.

[Antoine]

I did enjoy it... and I am notoriously picky, and not known for tact, so that's high praise, from me . ...

You've certainly done a lot of work and thought a lot about these things- it's interesting to see variants that question _everything_. I think Iron is still raw, but pretty successful, as far as I got anyway . Even if it weren't immediately playable, it would be a valuable comment on Angband... so, many thanks for making it, and I hope that there are some people out there who are are suited to it to such a degree that it becomes their main variant- it would be interesting to see how it evolved with the input of some fanatical players.

EDIT #2: also, since it was 2 weeks ago I have forgotten some things about Iron's magic so... for Iron, wands are only useful if you find them before you find the book with their spell- not a big problem, and that still makes them more useful than V's wands, but I kept some too long. But the, errr... what do you call them? totems? I forget now, but they need to be reduce mana costs proportionate to the spell cost to be useful for very long. Reducing the cost of an expensive spell by 1 mana is not very useful, if you compare it to an inventory slot... I carried a couple against my best instincts, to test- my best instincts were correct.

Thanks for the ups

And - just a comment on talismans - yes, they do already reduce mana costs proportionate to spell cost. For example a Talisman of Lore reduces the cost of *Identify* from 15 to 11. (And, no one seems to have picked up on this, but some magic items have the same function as a Talisman when worn...)

A.

[aeneas]

Thanks for the ups

And - just a comment on talismans - yes, they do already reduce mana costs proportionate to spell cost. For example a Talisman of Lore reduces the cost of *Identify* from 15 to 11. (And, no one seems to have picked up on this, but some magic items have the same function as a Talisman when worn...)

A.

Ah- I think I must have been thinking of wands- that is why I shouldn't comment 2 weeks later . As I recall I did keep one of the talismans- the one related to teleporting . If only I had used it to tele_other at the right time... anyway, as I said, I'll play the variant to the end sometime soon, and I'll have better comments then.