[Un] Unangband 0.6.3 prerelease 2

[andrewdoull]

- Having a wolf disarm a trap is a bit strange, so I would suggested to check for SMART and not ANIMAL; guess there are not that many smart animals, so this change would be mostly cosmetic - great for the look and feel, but without causing additional troubles ...

Except those damn monkeys and their pointy sharp sticks... I think there is much more strangeness in Angband than having a trap disarmed by a wolf.

- Checking for SMART leaves all the non-smart monsters as trap fodder: Using a Rod of Trap detection, the player can easily turn all the traps on the level against the monsters ... I witnessed a drove of centipedes get trapped by a gas trap in the middle of a Barrows Downs room ... they got confused again and again and only managed to leave the trap area after a long time by chance, if at all.
Therefore, a non-smart or animal monster should have a %-chance to (try to) leave the trap area out of instinct, if possible. This may mean, though, that they get seperated from the player and become easy prey for ranged attacks.

I'll actually use MFLAG_WARY for this - to allow non-smart monsters to only get fooled once by a trap. STUPID monsters, like centipedes, deserve what they get.

- Obviously, 100% secure trap detection, as it provided atm. by scrolls, rods and spells does not work well with monster-enabled area traps. Therefore, the detection radius should be reduced, or there should be a chance (maybe depending on distance/trap type) that the trap goes undetected. Remember that "searching" is pretty much restricted in range, and does never give 100% results - and normally is pretty much obsolete as soon as there's enough gold/XP available to use on of the other options.
As a side effect, therefore, making the magicals detections more rare/unreliable, or much more expensive, an otherwise seldomly used game mechanic would become more useful again, what IMHO would be a good thing.

While I like the idea, I'm not comfortable with the reaction by taking away people's toys (I've been burnt before - by making identify harder). Especially since I've created such a nice trap detection radius UI.

What I've actually done is create non-detectable rooms, usually vaults, deeper in the dungeon which completely block detection magic. These are intended to provide the challenge relying on searching - while making it an optional choice, rather than a mandatory one.

Andrew

[baddog73]

Something is going on with BerliOS. I registered and did not get the confirmation email. When I go back and try to login, it states that the account is pending verification, but when I ask it to resend the email it says the account doesn't require verification. Any idea what's up?

So until I get that figured out I'll have to post bugs here.

- Possible bug: I never see mushrooms of restore dex and agility in the Hobbiton mushroom shop. I see everything else commonly.

Funny thing that happened: killed a crow in Maggot's cellars. Without thinking I picked up a crow head that was embedded in the passage wall because it looked like a walkable grid.

[baddog73]

It seems entirely reasonable that "dumb" creatures would be done in by traps. What doesn't quite work is that only detected-by-player traps do this.

Imagine this: a wolf within view gets hit by a previously undetected trap, cluing the player in that a trap is present. Trap triggering by monsters within view could be a valid trap detection mechanic.

Killed by a trap out of view, a recent corpse could serve as a warning that something happened here. Also you might hear the sounds of monsters being hurt by a trap out of view.

The only downside I see with it is that reliable trap detection is available pretty early, which makes traps sort of a moot point, unless they block your way or you just forget to detect.

What about this possible solution: traps have a trap_level, the higher of which is more likely to avoid detection? Casting skill could increase the chances of detection with a spell (off the top of my head), but some combination of attributes and skills might also be figured into it. This would preserve the usefulness of searching, especially as some player classes won't have much magical ability.

Edit: also, as an additional idea, it would make sense if traps would have a limited lifespan. Dart traps have a limited amount of darts; Gas traps have a limited amount of chemicals; Magic traps have a limited amount of energy. Some nasty traps might only fire once. What do you think?

[Arralen]

Monsters, Traps and 0.6.3.pre2

Andrew Doull at [ Berlios #15580 ] Odd trap disarming:
[Monsters] are disarming traps that the player knows about. I pretty much have to do this, unfortunately, because otherwise monsters end up killing themselves on traps.
The distinction is between undetected traps, which can't hurt monsters and they quietly ignore, and detected traps, which monsters disarm and get damaged by.
As for the Mirkwood wolf problem - any SMART creature can disarm a trap...

Obviously, the combination of area effect/trigger traps and monsters that get damaged by random traps (opposed to player-set ones) results in some troubles:

- Having a wolf disarm a trap is a bit strange, so I would suggested to check for SMART and not ANIMAL; guess there are not that many smart animals, so this change would be mostly cosmetic - great for the look and feel, but without causing additional troubles ...

- Checking for SMART leaves all the non-smart monsters as trap fodder: Using a Rod of Trap detection, the player can easily turn all the traps on the level against the monsters ... I witnessed a drove of centipedes get trapped by a gas trap in the middle of a Barrows Downs room ... they got confused again and again and only managed to leave the trap area after a long time by chance, if at all.
Therefore, a non-smart or animal monster should have a %-chance to (try to) leave the trap area out of instinct, if possible. This may mean, though, that they get seperated from the player and become easy prey for ranged attacks.

- Obviously, 100% secure trap detection, as it provided atm. by scrolls, rods and spells does not work well with monster-enabled area traps. Therefore, the detection radius should be reduced, or there should be a chance (maybe depending on distance/trap type) that the trap goes undetected. Remember that "searching" is pretty much restricted in range, and does never give 100% results - and normally is pretty much obsolete as soon as there's enough gold/XP available to use on of the other options.
As a side effect, therefore, making the magicals detections more rare/unreliable, or much more expensive, an otherwise seldomly used game mechanic would become more useful again, what IMHO would be a good thing.

[Arralen]

I'll keep posting bugs here for comment, but I'll also put 'em up on berlios.

That was my intention when I asked if a list of "issues" could be in fact working as designed: ideally, someone knowledgeable would only reply "No", "Yes" etc., and I would put a proper report up on Berlios in case I actually found a new bug.

But this can work the other way round, too - sometimes there are feature requests/ bug reports which one could discuss here in the forum if someone comes up with a new idea ...

[baddog73]

I'll keep posting bugs here for comment, but I'll also put 'em up on berlios.

- Open small wooden chests have are represented by ACSII "space", or blank.

- A service of "feedback" in Gandalf's shop seems silly.

- Something for discussion: Are potions of water any use whatsoever?

[andrewdoull]

I was mostly just having some fun with it. But wouldn't it be cool, or really horrible, if curses could become stronger, or spread from one piece of equipment to another if left unchecked long enough.

I'm trying to make it a viable choice to consider wearing cursed equipment. The next step will be binding demons/dragons/undead to cursed items to make them obey your commands...

Andrew

[andrewdoull]

Hi,

Since there has been a question raised about bug reporting, ideally I prefer bugs to be reported to http://developer.berlios.de/bugs/?group_id=331 so that I can track these. I appreciate this is additional effort and it is often easier to post a bug in the release thread so I try to track bugs reported here. However, as the thread gets longer, it makes it harder for me to track bugs here and I end up manually copying them to the Berlios bug database anyway.

Regards,

Andrew Doull

[baddog73]

Bug? Torches from dungeon walls stack and average their energy, but not with torches bought from stores.

[ekolis]

Hmm, found a divide by zero exception when applying a potion of intelligence and wisdom to the character's hands...

[Bandobras]

Peace! Peace! The powers of darkness rejoice seeing us quarrelling instead of fixing bugs^H^H^H^Hevil done by Morgoth!

I won't join the flamewar, though, because I agree with both sides. Yes, the bugs are very ugly and reporting them is extremely important and sighing and being angry at them is as natural for me as for the players. OTOH, being partially responsible for some of the bugs, I sometimes cannot help but mistake the woe and disappointment as directed at me, not at the nature of software engineering, tainted by Morgoth, nor at the lack of volunteers that would help with the coding. Also, while I indeed read color-coded text much more efficiently, being guided by the marking, I detest color-coding, nevertheless, precisely because I don't like being guided and because I cherish my inefficiency, aided by text search, if really needed.

I hope that was 100% neutral. Down with Morgoth!

[Arralen]

OT: Dear Mr. Mack

Dear Mr. Mack,
it's the second time you criticise me, first for my writing style, then for my layout style, both within a rather short timespan. Before I look at the personal implications this means for me, let me point you (and everyone else who inadvertently gets drawn into this discussion) to the fact that none of those posts, save the AAR, which is a special case I'll explicate later, is directed directly at the casual reader, but first and foremost at Andrew Doull.

Andrew, I'm pretty sure of that, is completely capable of speaking for himself. So if he thinks my posts lack in either courteousness or polished layout, he'll have little trouble to let me know either directly here in this or another thread, or via PM. But he has not done so up to now.


On to the technical part:

I'm using primary colours in the AAR, because the MiniMap I provided must be so small due to forum settings, that more "discreet" colours will not stand out enough. Therefore I'm going with Cyan, Lime-Green and Yellow for the map markings and -accordingly- the chapter headlines.

As for the other threads - I checked with another PC which uses a different graphics card (even brand!) and a tube instead of a LCD display, and I found nothing which really hurts someones eyes. I have corrected 2 possible issues in the pre1-thread: the font size in that one posting, which turned out slightly exzessive on smaller screens (sorry 'bout that), and the thin magenta script in a later post. Btw., what could cause a slight annoyance there is not the magenta colour itself, but the combination with the thin standard font, depending on screen resolution.

In this -and other- feadback threads I use DarkOrange to mark catchwords/-phrase for the single issues to make them stand out from the bulk of the text, which often includes examples or personal comments. This is because I know from personal experience that you're often in great trouble if you have to go back to old postings to find some special information you know it's buried somewhere. Forum and browser search do not always help here, especially if you only have a vague memory of the exact wording.

If I use "primary" green, or magenta, it's for later edits to postings which already have been answered/read/"buried in the past" - either because I have resolved issue on my own (green) or I just was too dumb (magenta). Obviously, to draw the attention back to something that already has been looked at, you need a somewhat stronger stimulant, or the added information will be overlooked.

I don't think my colour usage -save the two issues I corrected- was so excessive as to be able to hurt anyones eyes, though.

Quite contrary: If I would use the more "gentle" colours, the text would either get hard to read because of missing contrast vs. the background ... :

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aenean quis purus vehicula ligula mollis lacinia. Nullam porta mi diam. Nulla elementum urna quis sem egestas posuere vulputate a elit. Donec placerat lectus eu libero tempor consectetur. Duis at magna vitae velit tincidunt.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aenean quis purus vehicula ligula mollis lacinia. Nullam porta mi diam. Nulla elementum urna quis sem egestas posuere vulputate a elit. Donec placerat lectus eu libero tempor consectetur. Duis at magna vitae velit tincidunt.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aenean quis purus vehicula ligula mollis lacinia. Nullam porta mi diam. Nulla elementum urna quis sem egestas posuere vulputate a elit. Donec placerat lectus eu libero tempor consectetur. Duis at magna vitae velit tincidunt.

.. or the catchwords/-phrase would simply not stand out enough to be recognisable in a split second:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aenean quis purus vehicula ligula mollis lacinia. Nullam porta mi diam. Nulla elementum urna quis sem egestas posuere vulputate a elit. Donec placerat lectus eu libero tempor consectetur. Duis at magna vitae velit tincidunt.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aenean quis purus vehicula ligula mollis lacinia. Nullam porta mi diam. Nulla elementum urna quis sem egestas posuere vulputate a elit. Donec placerat lectus eu libero tempor consectetur. Duis at magna vitae velit tincidunt.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Aenean quis purus vehicula ligula mollis lacinia. Nullam porta mi diam. Nulla elementum urna quis sem egestas posuere vulputate a elit. Donec placerat lectus eu libero tempor consectetur. Duis at magna vitae velit tincidunt.

Now if any of these are easily readable, or stand out brightly on your screen, I'm pretty sure you have both the contrast and brightness controls turned to max on you monitor. You should consider that they aren't there because they're superflous - the manufacturers would be more than happy to save another 50c on production cost by hardwiring the settings, I'm sure.
So if you find some slight colouration of forum text hurting your eyes - and mind you, we're not speaking of a abominations like this - wouldn't you think it would advisable to check your monitor and maybe your graphics card settings?


Ok, lets have a look at the "personal" part:

At first let me say - I'm not a native english speaker.
That means, I'm wasting too much time already on readable spelling, understandable -not correct- grammar, or simply finding the "right" words. Inevitably, I'll make mistakes. Let me assure you that I do not intend to sound harsh, cynical or sarcastic, unless I make it pretty much clear I do. What, on the other hand, might seems excessive to someone else then, but there's little I can do 'bout that.

Second, doing all the WAD-reports (quite a good percentage of things "reported" is actually working as designed - UnAngband has grown quite a bit more complicated than the standard variants, yet the documentation has not kept up...), eats even more of my time all by itself. This means, I'm often typing things in a hurry, and make more errors. I simply mark the text and hit the colour button, but I don't check back if in this special case on this special thread/side/whatever the result might be less than ideal.

And now I had to waste another hour or two on this reply - you may have simply send me a PM, but you preferred to discuss things in public, so I felt Andrew and this thread / the other readers deserved a more lenghty reply, just in case anyone felt like you but didn't speak up.

If that's the case, I seriously beg your pardon - and ask you to let me now via PM, because I don't want to derail this thread even more.

Stefan

[baddog73]

Pete wields a keyboard of aggravation...
It feels deathly cold!
You hear stirring in the distance.
The troll wakes up!
The troll wields a staff of sarcasm!
You feel nervous...

[Pete Mack]

Edit: [post deleted to deflame]

[baddog73]

After playing a while, the issue with {average} arrows not stacking got worse. Turns out that you end up using 3 arrow slots for the same arrow,

arrows (+0,+0) ; bought
arrows (+0,+0) {average} ; found then used until ID
arrows {average} ; found recently

At the least, it should remove the tag from the middle set and do a stack check when the autoID kicks in..?

- quick thought: do gloves show damage dice because they can enhance hand-to-hand, maybe?

- all rings pseudo ID {unusual} ; Even later I found a ring of slow digestion {unusual} ; Is there a purpose to that, or a bug?

- Bumping into vine-covered walls is annoying ; asks you what you want to pick up.


My lvl 14 test character dies to the Dunlending agent - 2 stinking cloud attacks take me from 120 hp to -7 - crap.