Water in Angband

[Nick]

Plenty of variants have water terrain. The implementations I know (something) about are:

• Oangband - water makes small differences to combat, and the player cannot step into water when too burdened
• FAangband - similar to O, but rather than being unable to cross when overburdened, the player's slowing by burden is tripled
• UnAngband - water puts out torches and lanterns, and the player gets tired while in water and can drown if too tired
• ToME (and other Z-likes?) - there is shallow water which has little effect, and deep water which steadily drowns the player in most circumstances

I am considering adding water as a terrain - it seems a reasonable thing to have in the dungeon, it adds tactical elements, and it could contain monsters.

Is this idea good, bad or indifferent? If good, how should it be done? Opinions are most welcome, as are explanations of how I've misrepresented variants

[Derakon]

I guess my question would be, what do you want water to add to the game? It sounds like you're coming at this from two main angles: thematic and game depth. From a thematic standpoint, sure, it's weird that there's no water supply in Angband (beyond the potions, ale, and wine). A purely thematic water, which doesn't affect gameplay in any way, would add some verisimilitude at the cost of making the display a little muddier, so to speak.

From a game depth standpoint, I'd want to be very clear about what the rules are. They both need to make sense (to avoid surprising the player) and add something to the game. I find that burden-based rules tend to be less interesting, for me anyway. The basic burden system needs to exist in some form to keep the player from carrying the world on their back, but intensifying the burden penalty in certain circumstances results in fiddly gameplay or players just shrugging and putting up with it.

I also find damage zones to be not very interesting, plus they create the odd situation of the player being able to recover from lacking oxygen by the expedient of drinking healing potions.

So if you want tactical depth from your water, here's my proposal:
* Walking in shallow water imposes a -5 speed penalty. This is irrespective of (and in addition to) any burden penalty. Ever try to walk in 3'-deep water? It's not easy.
* Some monsters ignore this movement penalty, because they can fly (or walk on water), are insubstantial, or would logically be good swimmers (some snakes, say). This imitates existing movement-limiting obstructions in the game: some monsters can move through walls or walk past weaker monsters.
* Some monsters are unable to walk on water, because of lore (vampires), physics (fire elementals), or small size and inability to swim (...insects?).
* Water forms streamers in the dungeon, providing alternate paths that don't require tunneling but do require putting up with the speed penalty.

Deep water, in the sense of water that covers the player's head, doesn't exist.

[tangar]

I like this idea. TomeNET got pretty cool water system and even 'swimming' skill: https://www.tomenet.eu/guide.php?chapter=4.15 They got:

- aquatic monsters which can spawn only at 'water' tiles; they can pursue player even in 'shallow' water, but can't leave it to surface
- swimming in deep water give a chance for scrolls & other items to be destroyed; water resistance items or tarpaulin (tool slot) protect from it.
- eventually you could die (drown) if you are tired and bad at swimming :E
- 'swimming' skill & racial parameter; It would be fun to have it in Angband (like 'Digging') eg makes hobbit swim not really good ^^
- you can not create walls on deep water; not all stuff could be summoned on deep water
- there is fresh and salt water. You could fill bottle; eg with salt water and use this potions to throw to the enemies or 'clean' your stomach

The problem:
Levitation. After player get this property, swimming become pretty useless and you do not notice water anymore. Maybe levitation shouldn't work above water? (explanation: this kind of magic need to have solid 'pillar').. Maybe levitation could make 'deep' water work as 'shallow'?

[MattB]

a purely thematic water, which doesn't affect gameplay in any way, would add some verisimilitude at the cost of making the display a little muddier, so to speak.

rofl
.

[tangar]

Also maybe water could be used with new hunger system..? Frodo and Sam had biggest problems with water in Mordor, not with a food..

How to implement water to hunger without making overcomplex stuff? Maybe to make water act as multiplier to hunger: if you didn't drink for a long time, you loose satiation point in 2-3-4 times faster (vice versa to slow digestion), depending on how long you didn't drink

[MattB]

A word of warning on funky terrain:

In the latest feature branch I had tons of fun with fire immunity standing in the middle of a lake of lava (something or other breathed fire) and shooting or OoD'ing the many monsters who would rather move back and forth getting shot to ribbons than walk across the ouchy hot stuff.

Fun? Certainly.
Balanced? Perhaps not.

[Voovus]

I'm anti-Water:
* Ok for a variant, but not for Vanilla. One of the few consolations for poor @, who regularly gets incinerated, electrocuted, confused, blinded and frozen, is that (even without wearing any boots) @'s feet are always dry. More serously, I think it could change the feel of the dungeon too much.
* Adding an effect primarily for thematic value can often decrease the fun. Next thing, you'll be introducing food and hunger into the game... (oops)

[Hounded]

I like it, especially after reading Derakon and Tangers responses. I always get excited by new room and terrain types (sorry Tiberius). Adding water to cavern rooms or a river crossing a "squiggly cave" level would add a further dimension. How about a stream moving through a vault (eg. a fountainhead where a spring or underground river emerges). I can imagine @ standing totally flummoxed at a river like a bunch of Dwarves lost in Mirkwood.

It could be expanded to a greater (possibly not worthwhile) mechanic but then we have further possibility of how to cross certain types or navigate the level without being able to do so.

I've not played the latest classes yet but sounds like druids have different forms? How about a water creature. Would an Ent be able to ignore water or speed healing while standing therein? Spell effects could also expand; "fly" "levitate" "pass water" (grief, that one needs a better name) "dry ground". Would there be steam effects (same impact as negative light) if you drop a fire bolt/ball?

And (because I can't resist), how many broken sticks does it take to make a raft?

[takkaria]

I really like Derakon's take - it seems like the most Vanilla-flavoured thing that water could be. A nice mechanic and not adding loads of extra faff or rules.

[tangar]

Water in Angband

A few comments.

UnAngband - water puts out torches and lanterns, and the player gets tired while in water and can drown if too tired

Considering removing lights - it could be a case if a character get _very_ tired and bad at swimming or if he was attacked by monster. But it shouldn't be permanent or player would fear too much to go to the water. Lets make it as a chance to put out light for a turn or two. It would make light 'flicker' in deep waters sometimes which make sense and would add some atmosphere.

ToME (and other Z-likes?) - there is shallow water which has little effect, and deep water which steadily drowns the player in most circumstances

Having deep/shallow water concept make sense. As we do not have much relief in Angband, adding new Z-dimension increase immersion to the game.

From a game depth standpoint, I'd want to be very clear about what the rules are. They both need to make sense (to avoid surprising the player) and add something to the game.

Sorry, I can not agree with this particular point: "to avoid surprising the player". The beauty of roguelike game is to surprize player again and again, it's core of the game replayability. Of course this surprizing should have sense. But it's not always has to be obvious. It has to have depth.

I also find damage zones to be not very interesting, plus they create the odd situation of the player being able to recover from lacking oxygen by the expedient of drinking healing potions.

In most cases drawing should cause stat drop (STR, CON, DEX), not the actual damage. But there is no need to fear that drinking healing pots after drawning make no sense: healing potions don't really make sense already anyway (how you could cure severe stuff with them so easely?), so we presume that they are 'magical'. There are a lot of magic around what makes game exiting

* Walking in shallow water imposes a -5 speed penalty. This is irrespective of (and in addition to) any burden penalty. Ever try to walk in 3'-deep water? It's not easy.

It's too harsh.. -5 speed is death sentence, because speed influence not only for moving, but to performing actions and attacking monsters.

What is 'shallow water'? It could be a few inches deep up to, as you noted, 3'. This is nominal term. Maybe shallow water should affect player less, maybe it's effect has to depend on character height (shallow water for hobbit or kobold could be a problem). But I suppose it's pretty alright to take presume that as it's nominal term - relativity works there and when you play hobbit and meet shallow water - it's shallow compared to you only; as it's single-player experience, there is no any logical problem with it.

I suppose 'shallow water' should be a term which indicate ankle/knee-deep water and should influence player accordingly (in lesser way); see Tolkien citation below.

Deep water, in the sense of water that covers the player's head, doesn't exist.

This is shallow water @ JRRT:

Gimli strode forward undeterred, and found that the water was shallow, no more than ankle-deep at the edge

This is deep water @ JRRT:

Then far below, as if the stone had fallen into deep water in some cavernous place, there came a plunk, very distant, but magnified and repeated in the hollow shaft.

And:

'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'

..and Gandalf was able to get out of this 'deep' water to persuade the Balrog, so it's not pure well with smooth sides..

But back from lore to gamedesign:

Deep water is a possiblity to add Z-dimension directed 'down'. And its not too hard to implement (compared to some other stuff).

One of the few consolations for poor @, who regularly gets incinerated, electrocuted, confused, blinded and frozen, is that (even without wearing any boots) @'s feet are always dry.

Btw. It make sense to multiply lightning damage when player stands in the water

It's beautiful thing to 'amaze' player with some 'roguelikish' tiny details which he reveals during gameplay.

In general, adding any kind of water would give player more choices - choose watery path or to avoid it and try another direction toward fining exit from the dangerous lvl. Some players could have pros to go to water, some have cons. It's fun.

[wobbly]

Sangband has water following the O rules or close enough too & more of it. It looks pretty but is otherwise annoying. Drop a bunch of stuff just so you can cross & pick up your ammo, o damn now too much weight with the ammo, some more annoyance of inventory jiggling...

I played Unangband a bit & found the torch going out mechanic annoying too.

Basically I'm all for water being added as long as it's done in a way that isn't going to be a UI hassle for the player.

Incidentally I'm still unsure what passable rubble actually does (apart from blocking LOS). I am however sure that 'l'ook followed by 'r'ecall doesn't bring up the info I'm after. If we are going to have terrain it'd be nice to have a way for the player to find out what it actually does.

[Sphara]

I'm not a huge fan of water tiles in roguelikes in general, although it's hard to criticize here beforehand. Before I know how it is going to be done, that is. For my part, adding water will be tolerated but probably not appreciated. If its gonna be always-avoid-type of terrain like it is in ADOM, Nethack, Brogue and DCSS, I'm just going to walk, teleport or phase out of there and ignore it, if it's humanly possible.

If it gets done, please do not add item destruction/corrosion with it for more 'realism'!

[Nick]

Incidentally I'm still unsure what passable rubble actually does (apart from blocking LOS).

That's about it

[Antoine]

I feel it's pretty weird to have lava and _not_ water.

A.

[Antoine]

Of course, there is the question of what happens when water and lava meet.

I don't think water should be a perfect defense against powerful fiery monsters (like big dragons). I'd like to see them either able to fly over the water, or dry it up, or just wade on in.

Water should also be generatable:
- by monster water spells like the Mystic's
- by a player spell 'create water'
- by watery or icy creatures leaving a trail behind them
- when a water elemental is killed (sploosh)

Consider adding 'thirst' to the game alongside 'hunger'.

A.