Water in Angband

[Bogatyr]

I'd love to see water in certain dungeon floor types and vaults. It's refreshing to see something different or thematic every now and then, and having a little stream running down the center of some squiggly caverns, or a small pool tucked into the corner of a cave, or a fountain design in a vault or whatever would just be nice. The water wouldn't even have to do anything, though I could see a move speed penalty if it absolutely needs to do something mechanically to justify adding it. It'd be neat just to have in the toolbox for special room, vault, and dungeon floor designs.

That would make the game better / more fun to me.

Maybe it would make "feather falling" (which could be rebranded as a form of levitation?) finally be a useful attribute? IIRC, in variants with water, there was a levitation effect that allowed passage over terrain without it impeding movement.

[Whelk]

I'd love to see water in certain dungeon floor types and vaults. It's refreshing to see something different or thematic every now and then, and having a little stream running down the center of some squiggly caverns, or a small pool tucked into the corner of a cave, or a fountain design in a vault or whatever would just be nice. The water wouldn't even have to do anything, though I could see a move speed penalty if it absolutely needs to do something mechanically to justify adding it. It'd be neat just to have in the toolbox for special room, vault, and dungeon floor designs.

That would make the game better / more fun to me.

[Raerick]

I don't think you can compare the addition of water (where does the feature creep stop -- forest levels?) to these.

Certainly the removal of things isn't exactly the same as the addition of things. I do not agree though that the logic "adding water means soon we will have forests" works. I didn't revive this suggestion about water for simple thematic or "flavor" purposes. I can't think of what something like forests would add gameplay wise or how they would work in an underground fortress. Hence why I think it is an overworld strawman that has nothing to do with the suggestion.

Door spiking as I recall just didn't work well at all since anything you'd want to block behind a spiked door is usually strong enough to just break the door. Having magical and physical door securing as a mechanic I think would be interesting.

I agree. I also think regardless of ways for the player to secure doors it would be interesting if there were various kinds of doors to be found. Say three different levels of door toughness ranging from current doors, iron, and steel doors. Aside from LOS obstruction doors are just paper. They work well enough as that, but it is kind of bland. Now, I wouldn't suggest going crazy with the number of types, nor should the heavier doors be used outside of special rooms or vaults. If doors weren't always paper some of the current overpowered but largely necessary measures for dealing with vaults and other special rooms could be tweaked.

I definitely do not want to see change for change's sake, that's what I mean by "preservationist." Making the game better / more fun, that's what it's about. Vanilla Angbang (and its forebearers back to rogue) never had "fruity" terrain like other variants.

I don't think having movement affecting water is change for change's sake, but that is just a difference of opinion I guess. I would like to point out that refusing change just because it is different can be just as illogical as 'change for change's sake'.

Currently lava isn't everywhere and basically has no impact 99% of the time and water could be similar. In no way is the suggestion about adding water everywhere or making water absurdly simulationist. I mean I read this thread and there were posts that veered in that direction, but I am not supporting that take.

[Pete Mack]

I do like the ice and fire levels in NPP. (Forest and sand dont make so much sense.) NPP also has toxic fumes--I bet the original Angband had that, too.

[Bogatyr]

So, as a preservationist, how did you feel about the loss of charisma, haggling, and door spiking?

I don't think you can compare the addition of water (where does the feature creep stop -- forest levels?) to these.

Haggling was a pain, but no-sell has its problem points. The ability to trade a particularly valuable treasure item that you don't need for something that you do need that you luckily found in a store but couldn't otherwise afford is missed. Having to haul junk up for cash is not much missed.

Door spiking as I recall just didn't work well at all since anything you'd want to block behind a spiked door is usually strong enough to just break the door. Having magical and physical door securing as a mechanic I think would be interesting.

I definitely do not want to see change for change's sake, that's what I mean by "preservationist." Making the game better / more fun, that's what it's about. Vanilla Angbang (and its forebearers back to rogue) never had "fruity" terrain like other variants.

[Sphara]

Again. If this is implemented, I'm pretty sure I can adapt. Doesn't mean I'd actually support it, but like many other players here, I've played variants that have slowing (or hasting) terrain. Not a fan, but it didn't push me away.

Whatever the beep is going to be done, just one request from my part: If there is going to be a movement speed penalty on some terrain, make it be just an integer number. I don't care for doing math of my actions for having something like -0.4 movement speed and +5 speed. Also, if you really wanna screw vanilla players, make this water appear on gauntlet level.

If I could choose between occasional water terrain and endless horde of huorns after >dlvl29, give me the goddamn water

[Raerick]

So, as a preservationist, how did you feel about the loss of charisma, haggling, and door spiking?

You know my first experience of Angband was just prior to door spikes being removed. I was a complete newbie and didn't make it past my first encounter with an AMHD in a vault while playing unspoiled back then. I had wrongly assumed it wouldn't be much tougher than the single color ancient dragons and also didn't even know that I was in what was known as a vault. I took a break for a while as I was pretty busy in my personal life. I didn't get my first win until about five years ago, but I have had many since then.

I personally don't have what I would consider a lot of experience with old Angband. So I may not be one who gets how adding in water ruins anything from a preservation standpoint. However, comparing how the game felt when I first played it to when I came back and actually worked on getting a win the difference was huge. The amount of new room variety in particular made the early game a lot less boring when I did come back. Variety in terrain (and room variety counts toward this in my opinion) is one of the things that makes the 100 floor slog better. I have seen what I consider stupid opinions before to lower the depth to Morgoth or the "dive deep" (i.e. skip most of the game) mentality by veterans to circumvent the "boring" parts. These "solutions" are wrong in my opinion and the second one in particular, while prevalent, really isn't a solution so much as ignoring the problem. Thankfully that problem has almost disappeared as far as I am concerned and the "boring" parts of the game have been ironed out a lot over the past several releases. From my point of view having some water isn't comparable to having an overworld, forests, or whatever irrelevant terrain variation you want to compare it to. Having water (in the way that I suggested) would add variation to the experience of exploring Angband's floors without changing much at all concerning the core experience. In fact water would interlock well into the core experience if handled as suggested. Shallow water isn't comparable to the need to swim, drowning, or other drastic changes that would detract from the game's focus. Shallow water that affects movement speed would affect combat, add variation to encounters where it is present, and add variation to exploration.

[wobbly]

There's always the option of adding water as a vault, special room thing only. Some vaults are actually already marked for water, the code is just ignoring it.

[tangar]

in Tangaria you meet plenty of water. Some monsters can swim over it, some not (also some can fly over); some player's races are better at swimming, some not so good.. some monsters can live in the water only. All this gives additional variability and doesn't hurt roguelikish spirit, on the countrary

Roguelike is genre where simple graphical representation gives us possibility to add a lot of interesting terrain mechanics and effects. It's fun to develop in this field too No need to put every level under water.. but if player meets it rarely, from time to time - it's pretty fun and make adventures less repetitive.

Though I agree that bring this idea to V is not trivial task. As when player will meet water - with high probability he will want just to skip this level..or stair scum it to another one (in T it's not possible due disconnected stairs). So if this feature will ever be implemented in V, I suppose it might be done in kinda such ways

1) make certain levels filled with water. Eg dlvl 20, 30, 40. So player will have to get through them. It's kinda forced player to play through these level which some can find not fun. But imho additional challenges is fun and it's fun to know when you will meet them. So player might want to save Deep Descent scroll to pass such levels, for example..
OR
2) another way - instead of forcing player - make water levels rewarding - make them have boni to treasure level.

But these two ways works only if level got A LOT of water in the level.

Anyway, as I said - it's not trivial task and these solutions feels pretty variantish.. Within default V gameplay mode (without disconnected stairs option) having water will be considered mainly like an obstacle which is too easy to avoid..

[Bogatyr]

I'm with Sphara that I am not a fan of water in roguelikes (and by that I mean REALLY TRULY roguelike, not what the term has come to mean which seems almost meaningless).

Also true for other terrain types -- forrest, etc. It just feels like "not Angband."

Let the variants variant. Vanilla Angband I think does not need to endlessly innovate for innovation's sake. Yes I'm a preservationist and proud of it.

[Raerick]

I know this thread is a bit old, but I think shallow pools or streams of water would be a great addition to the game. By shallow I mean as shallow as an aqueduct, sewage ditch, or town fountain.

The idea of -5 general speed is bad though. A small negative to movement speed would make sense, but not all speed. You only use your legs to wade through shallow water. This would balance out well too as water would be a soft barrier still as it would take longer to cross for the player and non-flying/wall walking monsters, but other actions would still be at full speed. One of the very few things I think that Vanilla doesn't have enough of is terrain tactics. There are "hard" barriers in the form of walls and impassable rubble. There are "soft" barriers like doors, webs (really neuters the threat of shallow bug pits if you have range, BTW), and passable rubble (LOS only). Then there are lava tiles which are damaging. Shallow water that slows movement speed and nothing else would fit in quite well. Fire breath should just turn water tiles into basic floor with no consideration for fluid dynamics.

I personally really enjoy when I come across rooms with lava or rubble fields. It adds variation to otherwise endlessly smooth stone floors. I have made use of both before to deal with threats and both also function as double edged swords under different circumstances. Shallow water would be a good addition to the terrain without being a frustrating obstacle.

[Glorfindel]

Here I go on the water.

I like the idea of water in Angband a lot, but have not really liked it in my (very limited) experience of variants. I hated the water in Unangband, do not like what I am seeing on FrogComposband, and think that what Nick describes for other variants sounds bad too.

In contrast, I really like Derekon's water, which seems like a more thought-out version of what I have been imagining myself. It should be primarily a speed reducer, and a spawning ground for certain types of monsters.

I think the only thing I disagree with him on is that deep water should not exist. In my opinion deep water should exist, but it should be very rare, rarer than lava, and that rather than casually drowning you if you step in, deliberately or by accident, it should simply be impassible by @, like permanent rock. Perhaps higher-level characters could cross it, like lava, but in that case the game should definitely ask the player for confirmation before letting him step there. I would likewise make it that only water monsters, such as elementals, vortices, the Watcher, etc., could go in deep water. That poses a real challenge for melee characters, but perhaps it is not a bad thing to force a player to wait until he has Teleport Other to fight certain monsters. I would put this very rare deep water in a handful of vaults (something that divides the vault like permanent rock does but is passable to certain select monsters sounds like good fun to me), and in pool rooms, equivalent to the lava rooms which we already see today (what I call 'craters').

Spell effects could also expand; "fly" "levitate" "pass water" (grief, that one needs a better name) "dry ground".

I very much like the idea of two spells, one to pass water by, equivalent to the current one that temporarily jams traps, and another to remove water. 'Dry Ground' is an excellent name for the latter, but for the former, I think I would prefer 'Breathe Water', at least if it was used for deep water. That would limit its use to water (I do not want 'Levitate' being used to pass traps), and keep away from the issue of @ swimming, which just seems like a big mistake to me. For a spell to pass normal water, perhaps there could be a 'Walk Unhampered' spell, which takes away all movement penalties from water and overburdening for 1d5+5 turns (it should not take away slowness from inertia or gravity - or should it?).

I don't think water should be a perfect defense against powerful fiery monsters (like big dragons). I'd like to see them either able to fly over the water, or dry it up, or just wade on in.

I agree water should not be a defense against powerful fire monsters, except perhaps for fire elementals (if those count as powerful; I have an idea for a new kind of fire elemental that definitely does count, but that is for another thread). Tolkien has already given us what happens when a great fiery dragon enters the water: he creates a great cloud of steam.

For example, if sufficiently strong firebreath could convert water into steam, which dealt immense damage as the player was broiled in their armor...that's surprising in a bad way, both because weaker firebreath didn't create steam and because the steam is so deadly.

I agree that steam that does material damage is bad. On the other hand, when Glaurung creates his cloud of steam, it produces a darkness effect, and frightens the Elves and horses. Darkness (low damage) and giving fear don't seem too much off, and the frightening need not be included if it is too much trouble.

Water should also be generatable:
- by monster water spells like the Mystic's
- by a player spell 'create water'
- by watery or icy creatures leaving a trail behind them
- when a water elemental is killed (sploosh)

I like generatable water. Monster spells sound like excellent attacks, so long as they are not overdone (but if good mechanics for webs have already been put in without making them gamebreaking, I am not worried). It seems similar to an idea I have been thinking of for exclusively monster-created traps of a more deadly nature than most of the normal ones: 'Saruman creates a fountain of fire under you. You are burned!' After all, that is what he did to Beachbone; it would amount to turning the floor under the player to lava. I also like 'Create Water' as a player spell to create a tactical barrier; man could that turn a long straight corridor into a killing ground for low-level monsters. More flavourful names might include 'Holy Rain', 'Command to Flood', and 'Raise Spring'. I don't think that I like the trail of water, except perhaps incredibly rarely. I would be OK with Waldern and Osse leaving water trails, but that is about it. A dead water elemental leaving a little pool is not bad flavour, and I would be all right with it, provided the coders do not object.

Water should evaporate and lava would become 'cold' to form a rock - passable rubble or a wall also could depend - is it shallow water/lave (lava depth matters!)

Also it's great thing to be able to 'freeze' water (with spells or breath of powerful frosty mobs)

I don't think that water should interact with other elements to produce something new. Water should not be generated to produce lava, and if a lava-producing fire-breather breathes on it, it should have the same chance of turning to lava as ordinary floor does; with deep water immune to such lava effects.

If there is frost/ice terrain, well and good; I imagine that upper level cold-breathers could turn water to frost terrain just as they would turn floor to it. Such frost terrain has been something I have been hoping for. I would want it concentrated in glaciers, rooms equivalent to craters and lakes, where it would be a spawning ground for snow trolls, white dragons, cold elementals, and other frosty creatures. I would give snow a similar slowing effect to water, but perhaps more severe. It would give a speed penalty at least as great as water's (perhaps not to Elves; see Legolas), but be removable by digging. Perhaps it could hide items like rubble does, too. It might just give you a bit of damage if you are barefoot or in sandals. Given Helm's invisibility in the snow while wearing white garments, and this being compared to a snow troll, I like the idea that snow trolls use the same sign as snow terrain does, a bit like mimics. Perhaps there could also be 'terrible ice', the cold equivalent of lava, which deals out damage whether you are wearing boots or not.

It also might be fun if a mage could use a pool of water to create a powerful attack spell the way Arwen does to thwart the Nazgul shortly before arriving at Rivendell with Frodo in the movies. The spell simply would not be possible without at least 20 connected tiles of water available to the Mage. (You need a sufficient body of water to create the spell).

I like this as a high-level spell; imagine the satisfaction of being able to cast water balls, albeit in highly specific circumstances. Would there be a possibility of being able to cast higher-power fire spells with access to lava, or perhaps cold spells when you are with my snow?

Since Nick is not terribly moved to add water, I might suggest implementing it in very limited form (ie. water shows up sparingly; and no giant lakes; just the occasional pool where smeagol might be found slinking about).Maybe have it only show up in cavern levels. With only one (max two) pools on such a level, and small, like maybe a small pool at the edge of an area, easy to circumnavigate.

For myself, I have been imagining water even more limited than this, just lake rooms (as rare as craters) and the occasional one-cell-wide stream, I must admit that I like Grotug's little pools.

My preference would be to start with "small streams and pools".

-no more than 3 tiles wide
-no risk of drowning, always passable by @
-no effect on lights
-no new monsters, but maybe new traps
-Slow (-5) and combat penalties for @
-Same penalties for most non-flying monsters
**impassable by some monsters (maybe some lesser undead and demons, reptiles), blocks tracking for some monsters
-can't rest

I agree on a limit width of three or four tiles, except for the rare lakes, which you need not enter at all, and definitely agree that you should not drown in normal water and that there should be no effect on lights. The speed penalties are good, and I like the new suggestion of the impossibility of resting in water. I disagree with the assertion that there should be no new monsters; bring on the Watcher, and maybe confine some current monsters to water. I actually have a few ideas of my own for water monsters, but they can wait until the issue of whether there is to be water at all is settled. Otherwise all these thoughts are good.

Honestly my biggest concern with -5 speed isn't the effect it'd have when applied to the player: it's the effect when applied to monsters. I foresee the player trying to lure monsters to rivers so that the player can stand on the banks and get a free relative +5 speed modifier. We'd want to be certain to make the AI smart enough to not stand in water if there's an alternative (or unless the monster isn't affected by water).

I'm not that worried about this, though I may defer to the infinitely more experienced Derakon. The only issue I am really seeing is that such concerns mean that any 'Create Water' spell should be expensive in mana, or short-lived (1d4+2?).

Then game would become 'lets lurk monsters to the water'. Every tile of water would become as main place of interest for the battle and player would 'dance' around it to bring mobs there. Water should be less 'important' in terms of tactics. Players are too 'munchkinish' and would harrass this heavely.

I don't see this as a difficulty, firstly because water should not be common, secondly because it should not be abundant, except in the extra-rare lake rooms (crater lakes?) which should not appear more than five times or so in a long game, and thirdly because where there is water there are likely to be water monsters, who will not be slowed, thus maintaining the challenge, and giving some incentive not to hang around the water too much for the sake of land monsters' disadvantage.

I would put a secret -1 to -10 speed penalty on water cells that you discover only hybrid stepping on it. It should also affect melee, archery, and AC. If the effect is 6 or more, you can't use a longbow.

I do not like the sound of this. I much prefer a set speed penalty; so much of the game depends on making calculated decisions, and I don't want to be thrown off by unpredictable water.

Regarding to item destruction, just few subjective arguments:
1) The game has enough item destruction as it is.

2) Scrolls of teleport level, (mass) banishment, destruction, rune of protection, for example, are far too valuable for me to risk losing them by voluntarily stepping on a dangerous terrain tile. Like I said earlier, I do not care for an addition that I'm most likely to ignore.

I agree; I hate item destruction without an attack with a passion. Boo elementals crushing items in vaults!

Well, those were my thoughts. I missed the main discussion, but better late than never. Even if Nick is settled on the point for this edition of Angband, perhaps it will be relevant next time.

[tangar]

I'm speaking on behalf of my TomeNET experience. There is such risks:

- aquatic monsters which can spawn only at 'water' tiles; they can pursue player even in 'shallow' water, but can't leave it to surface
- swimming in deep water give a chance for scrolls & other items to be destroyed; water resistance items or tarpaulin (tool slot) protect from it.
- eventually you could die (drown) if you are tired and bad at swimming // but it's VERY-VERY tiny chance. In most cases if you are unlucky you would reduce stat (STR/DEX/CON)
- 'swimming' skill & racial parameter; It would be fun to have it in Angband (like 'Digging') eg makes hobbit swim not really good ^^
- you can not create walls on deep water; not all stuff could be summoned on deep water
- there is fresh and salt water. You could fill bottle; eg with salt water and use this potions to throw to the enemies or 'clean' your stomach

...and it don't feel harsh at all (even with the possibility to have quite wide squares under water). In general you try to avoid water terrains, but you do not fear too much to swim from one shore to another. So when you are 'forced' to cross water - you do it. This isn't harsh 'forcing', it's like a choice from easy path to a bit more risky. It doesn't feel hardcore at all.

'Water' should be risky terrain. Not 'dangerous' like lava, but 'risky'.

[Narry]

If Nick and majority of the players want it to be implemented, I don't wanna stay on their way. But personally I do not care about the idea. Like I said, I haven't seen a roguelike where water squares provide nothing more than (minor or major) annoyance.

Regarding to item destruction, just few subjective arguments:
1) The game has enough item destruction as it is.

2) Scrolls of teleport level, (mass) banishment, destruction, rune of protection, for example, are far too valuable for me to risk losing them by voluntarily stepping on a dangerous terrain tile. Like I said earlier, I do not care for an addition that I'm most likely to ignore.

3) I do not want more situations like Lich/Balrog fights, where I stash drainable wands and staves somewhere before the hassle.

4) It would require lots of unnecessary coding, like adding |FLIGHT| flags on monsters. I don't know if this is an issue for Nick, though.

5) If it gets added, <-5> Speed doesn't sound THAT rough but it alone would still make it always-avoid-type terrain. Why would I move on a terrain that both slows me and randomly destroys my scrolls unless I'm absolutely forced to? Only reason would be that something like NetHack Medusa level or one those horrible ADOM rivers, stand between me and the downstairs.

Word.

ADOM has a way of getting around with it by either casting (or aiming a wand or zapping a rod of) frost bolt or building a bridge over the water. Of course, for the latter option you need the skill and some logs. And you get logs by chopping down trees with a hatchet. Let's not go down that river (pun intended).

[Sphara]

Whats the problem with that? If there would be quite rare event when one of your scrolls would be destroyed? It's totally alright experience, I've played with it in TomeNET and it's ok.

The only important thing - not to make it too harsh.

In RNG we trust (tm)

If Nick and majority of the players want it to be implemented, I don't wanna stay on their way. But personally I do not care about the idea. Like I said, I haven't seen a roguelike where water squares provide nothing more than (minor or major) annoyance.

Regarding to item destruction, just few subjective arguments:
1) The game has enough item destruction as it is.

2) Scrolls of teleport level, (mass) banishment, destruction, rune of protection, for example, are far too valuable for me to risk losing them by voluntarily stepping on a dangerous terrain tile. Like I said earlier, I do not care for an addition that I'm most likely to ignore.

3) I do not want more situations like Lich/Balrog fights, where I stash drainable wands and staves somewhere before the hassle.

4) It would require lots of unnecessary coding, like adding |FLIGHT| flags on monsters. I don't know if this is an issue for Nick, though.

5) If it gets added, <-5> Speed doesn't sound THAT rough but it alone would still make it always-avoid-type terrain. Why would I move on a terrain that both slows me and randomly destroys my scrolls unless I'm absolutely forced to? Only reason would be that something like NetHack Medusa level or one those horrible ADOM rivers, stand between me and the downstairs.