Improvement Ideas:

[t4nk]

I have some (largely stolen) thoughts about where replayability and fun comes from in a roguelike if we want to start a new thread with a less vague title and a more productive agenda.

I for one am interested in hearing your thoughs.

[wobbly]

I'd be interested too. If noone else starts said thread I might in a few days. Regarding interesting rooms my current setup in my own version is:

1. Boring levels with no interesting rooms
2. Mostly boring levels with occasional interesting rooms
3. Normal angband levels

Of the 3 I'm enjoying 2 the most. They really stand out when they are rare. The normal levels don't have interesting rooms because interesting rooms are the norm or close enough too. I do however agree with Gwarl, the more room templates feeding the RNG the more likely a room you haven't seen pops up.

[SethaWetha]

3) Moria lacked prefabricated rooms and it's bland monochrome hell.

Playing over 100 hours of Moria, I can agree with this. It's just the same thing over and over. Don't get me wrong it was still fun, but vaults in Angband were the right way to go.

[Tibarius]

re: asshole

Good lord dude, you're being an asshole. Dial it down by, like, an order of magnitude. I was going to give a thoughtful response to the actual substance of your argument, but I decided against it because frankly I'd rather not engage with someone who can't be polite.

If someone, like you, uses the phrase 'asshole' i personally consider that person obviously unable to handle criticism (which by the way was not directed to you). So do you think Nick cannot write for himself, or what reason motivates you to response to comments in that way?

Just because someone spends free time on something does not make that action justified from any possible point of view.

The essence of what i wrote is basically:
(1) I have a certain preference how the game should play so that i can enjoy it.
(2) The upcoming changes Nick is writing about will ruin the game from my point of view.
(3) So i do not welcome those changes and point out the fact before he actually codes stuff. So at least i did what was in my power to prevent the upcoming changes.
(4) My impression is that my opinion is a minority opinion in this forum, so it looks to me like i will just have bad luck.

[Derakon]

If someone, like you, uses the phrase 'asshole' i personally consider that person obviously unable to handle criticism (which by the way was not directed to you). So do you think Nick cannot write for himself, or what reason motivates you to response to comments in that way?

I can handle criticism just fine. "[Nick] is obviously no good game developer" is not criticism; it is an insult. People who sling insults without provocation are assholes.

My motivation is that you're attacking a keystone of our community. I'd be just as mad if you started swinging a sledgehammer at the local elementary school.

Just because someone spends free time on something does not make that action justified from any possible point of view.

Of course not. We're all writing these posts for free, for example, and at least some small percentage of them are not justified. At the same time, when someone is dedicating a significant amount of their time to doing something for free, and it is clear that they are acting in good faith, there's a higher standard to meet before you can start attacking them.

The essence of what i wrote is basically:
(1) I have a certain preference how the game should play so that i can enjoy it.

Certainly this is quite reasonable. I daresay that everyone who enjoys the game does so for at least slightly different reasons.

(2) The upcoming changes Nick is writing about will ruin the game from my point of view.

People have been screaming about how the game will be RUINED FOREVER by the upcoming patch since at least the 2.8 days. Don't like the changes? Stick to the old version. Whichever old version best represents the way you think the game should be, you can still play it. Or, like Nick said, grab your coding gloves and make the version that plays the way you want it to play. You can even try to convince others that you're running the new Vanilla, and if enough people agree, congrats! You're the maintainer!

Your reward is a bunch of other people getting angry at you because they don't like the job you're doing.

(3) So i do not welcome those changes and point out the fact before he actually codes stuff. So at least i did what was in my power to prevent the upcoming changes.

You are absolutely within your rights to try to persuade Nick to take a certain path. That's why there are threads in the development forum. However, if you want Nick to actually listen to you, then it behooves you to not be a dick about it. Assume good faith and present justified arguments instead of saying "[Nick] is obviously no good game developer."

Like, seriously, has telling someone "hey, you're terrible at what you do" ever convinced them to change their mind?

(4) My impression is that my opinion is a minority opinion in this forum, so it looks to me like i will just have bad luck.

Your luck could change if you were more polite.

[Carnivean]

If someone, like you, uses the phrase 'asshole' i personally consider that person obviously unable to handle criticism (which by the way was not directed to you). So do you think Nick cannot write for himself, or what reason motivates you to response to comments in that way?

Derakon or Nick being unable to handle criticism or not doesn't have anything to do with the level of social transgression that you made. I doubt that there is anyone that would consider your words to be anything less than utterly impolite and likewise most people would think less of you as a person for having committed such an act.

You were an asshole and deserved to have the approbation of other members of the community that were witness to what you did.

Derakon has acted with restraint and a great deal more patience than you have deserved.

[Quirk]

Derakon has acted with restraint and a great deal more patience than you have deserved.

I would like to note that I found Nick's response saintly, and the same thing could be said of him also.

Are these forums actively moderated?

[Nick]

Are these forums actively moderated?

Well, I have moderator powers

To be perfectly honest, much as it annoys me sometimes, I prefer to hear the criticism. In this particular case, Tibarius did (IIRC) have some ideas which I incorporated into the new mage class. The way that class developed has disappointed him, though, and hearing that reminds me that any changes are going to annoy somebody.

When I took on this job, I made a conscious decision to have make my development process as public as possible, because I thought it would lead to better outcomes, and on the whole I think it has. But that's just my opinion.

So I'm planning to keep the development process pretty much the same because that works for me, and seems to be mostly working for most people. Maybe the next maintainer will undo a lot of what I do and go in a completely different direction. I'm just really glad to have the opportunity to work on this game that has given me such enjoyment.

[Carnivean]

I would like to note that I found Nick's response saintly, and the same thing could be said of him also.

Yes, totally agreed.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Nick, you probably never guessed that taking on being Angband maintainer would lead to canonization. While I don't always agree with all the changes, I wholeheartedly endorse your application to sainthood!

[mrfy]

Nick, you probably never guessed that taking on being Angband maintainer would lead to canonization. While I don't always agree with all the changes, I wholeheartedly endorse your application to sainthood!

Isn't Saint Nick already in the game as Father Christmas?

[Grotug]

Isn't Saint Nick already in the game as Father Christmas?

Hahahaha, maybe it should be changed to Saint Nick. +1 to Derakon and Carnivean's posts.

Philip said:

it would just require the monster that killed your previous character to become a unique until a descendant finally kills it. I think this would be fun, but it would be a lot of work.

I love this idea! I would love to see this in V. It would give dying the silver lining I always wish it had. Of course it would be terrifying starting up a new game after just dying to a Drolem or something along those lines.

I love the prefab'd rooms in Angband. I love all the new ones. It seems I am still encountering special room types I have never seen before; some of them seem to be hybrids of others; some almost feel like they are randomly generated, though I don't see how they could be. Seems to me there is enough of them that you don't keep seeing them all the time. And the large oval one with the rectangle in the center is an iconic Angband staple.

I like the idea of smaller early levels, or at least early levels that are easy to navigate.

[takkaria]

I love the prefab'd rooms in Angband. I love all the new ones. It seems I am still encountering special room types I have never seen before; some of them seem to be hybrids of others; some almost feel like they are randomly generated, though I don't see how they could be.

I wonder if we could train a neural network on the existing room set to create random new ones...

[Derakon]

I wonder if we could train a neural network on the existing room set to create random new ones...

The sample set is still a bit small, but it's probably big enough. See if you can get the interest of that person that made machine-generated Pokemon (and perhaps a bit more relevantly, D&D spells).

[Huqhox]

I like the idea of smaller early levels, or at least early levels that are easy to navigate.

I had a bash at this on the latest source. The new level gen is easier because it already has a proper scaling factor in it. The classic gen is harder because it doesn't work so I did some fudges to make sure the number of items, monsters, stairs and traps were roughly in line with the level size. I didn't touch the cave or labyrinth levels but these don't appear until after the early levels anyway.

I tinkered with the size a bit (one room levels being just a bit too small...) and came up with a formula of (2 x depth + 60)% scale factor, so the first 14 levels scale up slowly. I felt it worked quite well.

Does it speed up the first few levels? Yes. Would it encourage new players to not explore every level completely? I think the jury is still out on that one