Class/magic feature branch

[Estie]

Canonically, the pukelmen are statues made by the Druedain, who are very closely associated with trees and generally quite druidish behavior. Basically think of them less as golems and more as stone guardians of the forest, carved by druids. Now, obviously, canon is not everything, but there are no actual canon problems with a pukelman form, and the idea of a slow, but powerful shapechange for druids seems sound to me.

A raven form would seem quite appropriate, since they show up on the side of good quite often in Tolkien, but it's not entirely clear to me what the form should offer. Stealth/speed/spellcasting (symbol of wisdom), but quite squishy? Probably too powerful for kiting and stuff, though. There is one more animal that turns up a lot, which is the Eagle, but that's more associated with Manwe, and there is no easy niche for it in terms of power, especially since a huge eagle would have trouble flying around in a dungeon.

Its not like I didnt get where the pukelman shape is coming from. Its more that I find moving stone statue unfitting unless empowered by "bad" arcane magic. And I dont think they defend anything in the books. Also, a druid based on Druedain wouldnt have elemental spells. The only thing I can think of that might come close to this DnD druid would be Radagast.

And as for slow but powerful, the numbers are just completely off. A low speed druid loses, among other things, about 20% damage from the -4 speed and the boost isnt even making up for that. If you foolishly cast it at base speed, you become both slow and do less damage.

[Nick]

New builds up on the build page (reminder, source is available to browse on Github, or as a zip file). Changes include:

• Savefiles broken - don't try to use an old one, it will definitely fail
• Big changes to druids, including multiple new game mechanics. I'm not going to describe them here, but make people actually look at them
• Smaller adjustments to priests
• Some effort to make experience for first cast of spells a bit more reasonable
• Dungeon books made more common

Please let me know what you think, and if I've broken anything.

[Nick]

Canonically, the pukelmen are statues made by the Druedain, who are very closely associated with trees and generally quite druidish behavior. Basically think of them less as golems and more as stone guardians of the forest, carved by druids. Now, obviously, canon is not everything, but there are no actual canon problems with a pukelman form, and the idea of a slow, but powerful shapechange for druids seems sound to me.

A raven form would seem quite appropriate, since they show up on the side of good quite often in Tolkien, but it's not entirely clear to me what the form should offer. Stealth/speed/spellcasting (symbol of wisdom), but quite squishy? Probably too powerful for kiting and stuff, though. There is one more animal that turns up a lot, which is the Eagle, but that's more associated with Manwe, and there is no easy niche for it in terms of power, especially since a huge eagle would have trouble flying around in a dungeon.

There is one more animal that I have unfortunately omitted, but is also important, which is the noble donkey. I think donkey form should give resistance to status effects (or even perfect saving throw?) but not very much else (carrying capacity?).

I think ponies are more Tolkienian than donkeys. The rest of your speculation is ... quite good

[Philip]

Canonically, the pukelmen are statues made by the Druedain, who are very closely associated with trees and generally quite druidish behavior. Basically think of them less as golems and more as stone guardians of the forest, carved by druids. Now, obviously, canon is not everything, but there are no actual canon problems with a pukelman form, and the idea of a slow, but powerful shapechange for druids seems sound to me.

A raven form would seem quite appropriate, since they show up on the side of good quite often in Tolkien, but it's not entirely clear to me what the form should offer. Stealth/speed/spellcasting (symbol of wisdom), but quite squishy? Probably too powerful for kiting and stuff, though. There is one more animal that turns up a lot, which is the Eagle, but that's more associated with Manwe, and there is no easy niche for it in terms of power, especially since a huge eagle would have trouble flying around in a dungeon.

There is one more animal that I have unfortunately omitted, but is also important, which is the noble donkey. I think donkey form should give resistance to status effects (or even perfect saving throw?) but not very much else (carrying capacity?).

[Nick]

I'm actually looking at shapechanges that are all quite different from each other and have distinct uses for the player, rather than a progression. I have some ideas, we'll see how they pan out

[Estie]

Hmm the obvious candidate would be the ent. Now ents are at the top of the power curve; so maybe replace pukelman by bear, and add ent as 3rd ?

The speed penalty woud thematically fit for the ent, and as the ultimate form, if the penalty is a flat substraction, then simply equipping over-speed would be a small price to pay for an improved combat form that ends up at the same effective speed as everyone else.

I still like the simple fox - wolf - bear, too; middle earth mythology be damned.
Pukelman is more of a golem in my mind, more fitting for arcane.

[Derakon]

How about a raven? Might not be a good match for the form's current abilities though.

[Estie]

I support the change pukelman -> wolf.

With Tolkien, wolves are on the dark side. I remember a fox sniffing hobbits sleeping outside, and Beorn; wolves are always connected with orcs or fell winters. No idea what a druid would be though.

[PowerWyrm]

Eventually @ grew enough to be able to cast spells from book 4, and that one is an entirely different matter. All spells are excellent, with the possible exception of pukelman. The loss of speed is likely going to be a dealbreaker before +10 base speed; and casting both haste and transformation doesnt really work when the manapool is low and the failrates are high. Just haste self without pukelman is superior. Also, shouldnt the shape between the fox and the bear be a wolf ?

I support the change pukelman -> wolf.

[Huqhox]

Then I guess I have my answer...

I think we were looking at the same thing from different ends and meeting in the middle

[PowerWyrm]

The problem with Spear of Orome is that it does barely more damage than Orb at four times the mana cost (not mentioning the failing rate and high level). Doubling the damage would be fine (clvl*d8, that's roughly 200 at level 50, same as old Annihilation). Oh wait, isn't that double against evil? Then no it's too powerful... I guess the problem is that Orb is good enough you don't need another "holy orb" spell at high level, unless you want something too powerful. Maybe change the element?

Been playing a bit with the new priest class; priest is my favourite class from V but it has always seemed there is one thing that makes it quite a bit unbalanced: Orb of Draining. An issue that has been raised before.

Then I guess I have my answer...

[fph]

Really begs the question: how "good" are these good monsters if they're attacking a priest?

I have seen religious flamewars started by much less...

[debo]

How good is the priest if they're attacking "good" monsters?

They started it!

I always thought having alignments in angband was sort of stupid if it didn't change whether the monsters attacked you or not. It's just a resistance disguised as a different game mechanic.

[Derakon]

Really begs the question: how "good" are these good monsters if they're attacking a priest?

How good is the priest if they're attacking "good" monsters?

[debo]

Really begs the question: how "good" are these good monsters if they're attacking a priest?