Class/magic feature branch

[Sky]

So no matter how long you waited it didn't recover?

it's a visual-only bug. i had the same, tried, and could cast.

[Estie]

What is going on with the changes ?

All I can see are new classes created by removing stuff from the former casters.
The casters had the lowest damage in the game, balanced by the highest utility from their books. The utility has been reduced below even what the old hybrids used to have (because banishment got nerfed - why this change ? I strongly disapprove), but the damage is still the same low level.

I am not one to nitpick balance, but a assumed at least a sanity check would be made. I cant see that happening at all. With the druid shapes, I completely missed that the 1st one, fox, actually had a damage boost (about the amount I suggested for the last late game shape), but the later shapes completely fall off compared to the fox. And the reaction is to nerf the fox, too. So are mages all going to be challenge classes ? If so, why bother making so many of them ?

I dont know if I like a mage without light utility or not, but if you take it away, what do you give in return ? Changing the colour of the attack spell isnt going to make up for that.

Curently, a gnome mage is a bad gnome warrior who can cast a few utility spells from books but does 1/3 the damage. It is a cripple. What is the greater plan ?

[Philip]

Light seems to have two somewhat distinct features in Angband. One is as an element, usable by monsters and the player. The other is as an information tool, constantly telling you the contents of all lighted areas in line of sight, Clearly, the first would fall into the domain of the priest, and it seems fair for that to be exclusive. Giving the information tool only to priest seems to be the issue here, though. I agree that it is odd for the class with the most dungeon control not to have an important early/midgame tool. In my opinion, giving mages the ability to make squares visible somehow would be important. If keeping mages from using light is important, Tome4 has an interesting spell called Arcane Eye that sees monsters (in the dark) in a certain radius around wherever you place it.

As for copying realms from Oangband, as much as I like the variant, gameplay is not particularly distinct by class in it. Necromancers and druids do little more than fill gaps between the mage and the priest, necromancers being magey but with Dispel Evil, and druids being priesty but with elemental bolt spells (and for whatever reason, TO at clvl 15 and Detection at clvl 21, both in town books). They are not particularly distinct, nor do they seem to follow any consistent patterns in terms of gameplay or theme. They have some very interesting spells in the later books, but these seem to be allocated more or less at random. One form of continuity with V is that there is at least one book per class that is completely useless and serves only to annoy the player. Half-caster classes are a bit more distinct, but more through skills than through spells. One differentiating aspect is Specialty Abilities. These do a bit, but not enough, and I don't expect them to be added to V any time soon (though it would be nice).

[debo]

On the other hand, stuff like infravision is pretty useless right now. It sounds like this might make certain equipment attributes actually valuable instead of chaff. (Could be worth changing infra from 'sees heat from living things' to 'has a chance to see anything in the dark'.)

[Gwarl]

I think that if we emulate the Oangband thematic distribution of magic like this we should take a conservative route and more or less half-copy straight from there. Oangband I think was a variant that understood some of the underlying tone of the game, and the additional classes there fit comfortably alongside the vanilla classes. Their presence isn't disruptive. Mages can still operate as mages, priests can still operate as priests.

I like that when I play a mage in angband I'm getting a full suite of mageyness, and not having design a build where my spells complement each other well. I can do whatever a mage can do - which in particular involves preparing the field of battle with the use of magic (light spells). I have a ranged attack, and to use it I need to be able to see my target.

All of the classes have their own distinct methods of interacting with the dungeon when they initially encounter it going all the way back up the variant inheritance chain. The warrior blunders into things which can hurt him like traps and monsters because he only has a radius 1 torch but he has the HP to survive if he rests between encounters. The mage is craftier and lights his way using magic to kill his enemies from a distance. The rogue sneaks around in the dark but unlike the warrior he finds his way using detection and picks his fights using stealth. Ranger is a little more idiomatic, it's the warrior/mage hybrid with bow skill attatched. The priest uses his faith to survive the early dungeon and is rewarded with awesome power and endurance later on. However he lacks some of the diversity of the mages thoroughly complete toolkit.

This stuff gets obscured by high level play and tactics to bypass stages of a lengthy game, but they're the fundementals. Mages need light.

[Nick]

when browsing priest spell Heroism (8th lvl human Priest), info states "heal 10; dur d-11". What is "dur d-11" supposed to be?

Bug in the description - the full heroism effect doesn't actually kick in until CL20 (until then it's just remove fear and 10HP), but the spell description is being dumb and saying you get -11 turns.

Also, wandering blind, 'caus no light, so casting light ran out of SP could not recover SP from 0 while waiting (this may be intermittent), only by going up/down stairs, expected behavior?

So no matter how long you waited it didn't recover?

It is not possible to sense stairs when blind, intended?

Traditionally true, I think, but worth thinking about.

There's a great deal about these changes that doesn't sit right with me, but I would like to say this:

If you are dead set on removing light-based spells from the mage class (I think this would be a mistake), can we give them a spell to temporarily increase their infravision? Significantly (50' or more) and early in the game (level 5 or below).

Surprisingly reticent, Gwarl - tell me all your complaints, I can take it

I've been doing some rewriting of the effects code to make class.txt easier to understand; hope to get an update out this weekend with at least that in it.

[Gwarl]

There's a great deal about these changes that doesn't sit right with me, but I would like to say this:

If you are dead set on removing light-based spells from the mage class (I think this would be a mistake), can we give them a spell to temporarily increase their infravision? Significantly (50' or more) and early in the game (level 5 or below).

[Pete Mack]

I don't know about you, but for a significant part of the game (basically: getting more than 2 blows and low fail for Heal), priest and mage are pretty different. That said, I agree Priest Orb spell makes for much too similar play. But Orb is not the whole game.

(2)take the two generally similar pure casters currently in existence (mage/priest) and make four dissimilar pure casters utilizing one of the four themed realms (arcane/nature/holy/death). I believe Nick said earlier in the thread that there isn't necessarily an intention to make a hybrid caster for each realm just for the sake of having one.

Note: "Dissimilar" above meaning the play styles differ in significant ways, unlike the mage/priest distinction.

[Sky]

your SP do recover, but the counter does not move.

[Hrrunstar]

For the 61 version:

when browsing priest spell Heroism (8th lvl human Priest), info states "heal 10; dur d-11". What is "dur d-11" supposed to be?

Also, wandering blind, 'caus no light, so casting light ran out of SP could not recover SP from 0 while waiting (this may be intermittent), only by going up/down stairs, expected behavior?

It is not possible to sense stairs when blind, intended?

[PowerWyrm]

Good point about the shapechange back. Looks like I need to nerf the fox

In PWMAngband, shapechangers have their hps changed depending on the monster they polymorph into with formula being 60% of character hp + 40% of monster hp. If you use a form with low hps, you get a big decrease in hps. You could do that in V, with fox getting low hps and bear getting high hps. That would nerf the fox and make the bear more useful.

[Nick]

i am now grinding for that one legendary dragon armor (i've already found a power dragon sm but it just won't cut it) and here's my thoughts on the druid.

Thanks a lot, this is very helpful.

1. it really makes things easier if every mob you fight is confused

Right, so Confuse Monster is worth it?

2. you will spend most of the game in fox form
sometimes you ID items you walk on, other times you don't. i suggest being able to see items, but not use them.
the command to come out of fox form (m+y) doesn't work if you are blinded or confused, but Quaff does. (q-> do you want to change form->y)

Good point about the shapechange back. Looks like I need to nerf the fox

3. the endgame spells are .. ok, but nothing to write home about.
the ice storm LOS spell is cool to clear vaults and pits and annoying townsfolk. you can kill big stuff with meteor swarm and rift if you want, but you could instead just shapeshift and hit them with your axe.

I'm probably OK with that.

i'm not sure what pukelman and bear shape are supposed to do, when fox form gives you +5 spd and +1 blows.

Bear is meant to be specifically for melee, and pukelman (especially as it is in the recent changes) is good for wading through lots of minor enemies - hounds, trolls, etc.

4. rivitalize is fantastic, and herbal heal is fine as it is, considering how little you pay for restore.

I've changed herbal healing to heal over time - handy for casting before shapechange, and a point of difference from priest healing.

probing, polymorph, mass sleep and mass confuse are useless, but earthquake is the closest thing to a "block corridor" spell and i escaped a bunch of angry mobs because of it.

I have ditched polymorph, probing and mass confuse, but mass sleep has been improved (it no longer wakes eveerything up and then tries to put it back to sleep). Earthquake (the druid spell only) I have made smaller area of effect and targetable, so it should work even better as "block corridor".

because you only use utility spells, except fox form, sense surroundings, and the heal + restore spells, you don't really need mana. i completely ignored WIS in favour of bonk-on-the-head stats and just melee'd everything. plays just like a paladin, with added plasma breath.

Yes, that's interesting. We'll see how playstyles evolve.

[Estie]

i'm not sure what pukelman and bear shape are supposed to do, when fox form gives you +5 spd and +1 blows.

I completely missed that +1 attack. I saw a stealth bonus and jumped to the conclusion that fox was a sneaky shape.

[Sky]

i am now grinding for that one legendary dragon armor (i've already found a power dragon sm but it just won't cut it) and here's my thoughts on the druid.

1. it really makes things easier if every mob you fight is confused

2. you will spend most of the game in fox form
sometimes you ID items you walk on, other times you don't. i suggest being able to see items, but not use them.
the command to come out of fox form (m+y) doesn't work if you are blinded or confused, but Quaff does. (q-> do you want to change form->y)

3. the endgame spells are .. ok, but nothing to write home about.
the ice storm LOS spell is cool to clear vaults and pits and annoying townsfolk. you can kill big stuff with meteor swarm and rift if you want, but you could instead just shapeshift and hit them with your axe.

i'm not sure what pukelman and bear shape are supposed to do, when fox form gives you +5 spd and +1 blows.

4. rivitalize is fantastic, and herbal heal is fine as it is, considering how little you pay for restore.

probing, polymorph, mass sleep and mass confuse are useless, but earthquake is the closest thing to a "block corridor" spell and i escaped a bunch of angry mobs because of it.

because you only use utility spells, except fox form, sense surroundings, and the heal + restore spells, you don't really need mana. i completely ignored WIS in favour of bonk-on-the-head stats and just melee'd everything. plays just like a paladin, with added plasma breath.

[Nick]

Its not like I didnt get where the pukelman shape is coming from. Its more that I find moving stone statue unfitting unless empowered by "bad" arcane magic. And I dont think they defend anything in the books.

Here's what I was basing it on - it's not a perfect match, but it's not far off.