Bugs and issues in 4.1.0

**Sky** · September 23, 2017, 13:52

rDark should not give me rBlind, no?

**Ingwe Ingweron** · September 23, 2017, 14:11

Originally posted by Sky

rDark should not give me rBlind, no?

Only if the blind effect is a side-effect of a darkness breath or spell. Not if it is blindness from something other than Darkness.

**wobbly** · September 23, 2017, 16:07

Originally posted by Sideways

I don't mind high-level monsters, especially uniques, finding the player easily after Teleport Other; like Pete Mack said, it means you can teleport them away and they'll come back to you when you've recovered a bit; you don't need to go looking for them, unless they get stuck behind something or somebody. Of course, it's a whole another story if you'd rather avoid the unique/high-level monster than kill him

Basically, I'd guess improved pathfinding = good for slow, grinding players and nasty for speed-divers; though I'm sure that wasn't the intention.

While admittedly I haven't played a lot of V since the changes the times I have I found the pathfinding made things easier rather than harder & I'm not the grindy-est player.

A side effect of things that are aware of you pathing towards you is them being less likely to be where you teleport to.

**NimrodPE** · September 23, 2017, 19:53

I am playing Angband Vanilla 4.1.0 and until now it crashed around 6 times as soon as I saw the demonic Quylthulg. He was sitting 1 tile southwest from @, 1 tile east of the stairs (see screenshot).

Code:

[TT][BC=black][COLOR=white]
                                                                                               
[COLOR="#00FFFF"]High-Elf[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]=[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#%##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]###%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] ?[COLOR="#606060"]#.##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
[COLOR="#00FFFF"]Hero[/COLOR]              [COLOR="#606060"]#######[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]?[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#FFFF00"]/[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] ?[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####.#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"][[/COLOR][COLOR="#00FFFF"]/[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
[COLOR="#00FFFF"]Warrior[/COLOR]      [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR]         [COLOR="#606060"]###%#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#C0C0C0"]|[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"].#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
LEVEL [COLOR="#00FF00"]    41[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]][/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]               [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%%##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####.#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"]=[/COLOR] [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
NXT [COLOR="#00FF00"]  391203[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]###[/COLOR]      [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]###[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#%##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#606060"]#\[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"])[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.###[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
AU [COLOR="#00FF00"]  1389517[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR] [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]][/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]########[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]}[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]       [COLOR="#606060"]%%##%.########..[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
[COLOR="#FFFF00"]/[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]}[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"]=[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]=[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]"[/COLOR][COLOR="#FFFF00"]~[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]([/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]([/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"])[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]][/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]]][/COLOR]  [COLOR="#C08040"]_[/COLOR][COLOR="#FF00FF"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#%%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%%#%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.###[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
STR!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/180[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]_[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"][[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]+[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
INT!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/170[/COLOR]       [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#######[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]##%.%[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]+[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#####.########.###[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
WIS!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/130[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#%##[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]~[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]^[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]^[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].....[/COLOR]<[COLOR="#606060"]...................#[/COLOR]                                       
DEX!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/***[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF00FF"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"])[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]#...........................#[/COLOR]                                       
CON!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/210[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#######[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%##.%###.###[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]+[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.####.####[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
              [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]-[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   >[COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"]|[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%.#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]_[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]_[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR] ?[COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
Cur AC [COLOR="#00FF00"]  142[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]##%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.##[/COLOR] -[COLOR="#606060"]#.####.####[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
HP [COLOR="#00FF00"] 988[/COLOR]/[COLOR="#00FF00"] 988[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]{[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]########[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"]|[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]####.[/COLOR]>[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]##.#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#.....[/COLOR]>[COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
                  [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]###[/COLOR]      [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]###[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]##.###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"].#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]##.####[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
                                [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#9020FF"]![/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]\#[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]##[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#606060"]#######[/COLOR]            [COLOR="#606060"]########.###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#C0C0C0"]-[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FFFF00"]![/COLOR] [COLOR="#C0C0C0"][[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#######[/COLOR]            [COLOR="#C08040"]{[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#####.[/COLOR]####[COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#008040"]?[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#9020FF"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#\#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####........[/COLOR]...[COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Fast (+20)[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#C0C0C0"]"[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]([/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]######[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]|[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]####.####[/COLOR]#@.[COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
2600' (L52)    [COLOR="#606060"]#####[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#\#.#[/COLOR][COLOR="#00FFFF"]^[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]+[/COLOR]<.#[COLOR="#C08040"]_[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]_[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]      [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]\[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#.#.#[/COLOR]#[COLOR="#606060"]##.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]([/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR]      [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#######.#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]....[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]([/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]######[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]([/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]######[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"]|[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.........#[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]####.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####.####....#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
               [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#C0C0C0"]![/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]            [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.#..[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]_[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]...#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#C00000"]![/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#########[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#####[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]######[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FFFF00"]\[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]<[COLOR="#606060"]#########.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#606060"]\[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]             [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]?[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]-[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]? [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#...........[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]                                       
             [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]###########################################[/COLOR]                                       
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
             LF:[COLOR="#C00000"]9[/COLOR]-[COLOR="#FF4040"]9[/COLOR] [COLOR="#00FF00"]Full[/COLOR]                                                                       
[/COLOR][/BC][/TT]

My guess is that Q either tried to summon or blink-self (which he can do about 1 in 2 times) and that this triggered the crash. Either because he isn't allowed to summon an enemy on a stair-tile or Angband couldn't find a proper location for his blink-self. It didn't matter if I dug the corner of the wall as seen above or if I opened the door (1 tile west of the stairs) to get to Q, Angband crashed nonetheless.

And by crashing I mean Angband froze. First time I waited about 5 minutes but nothing happened, so I had to ctrl+alt+del => task-manage-kill the game. All the other times same thing happened as soon as I saw Q until this 6th or 7th try where Angband didn't froze and I was able to kill Q.

Here's my save file although Q is now dead. Sorry, but I didn't know that manually closing a proper running Angband equals a "Save and Quit".

Attached Files

Belladonna.zip (31.5 KB, 103 views)

**NimrodPE** · September 23, 2017, 20:27

Sorry for doubleposting but this "Seeing-Quylthulg-Angband-Freezes"-bug occurred again.

Same level, slightly different enemy, different location. This time it's happening with the green Q, see screenshot below.

Code:

[TT][BC=black][COLOR=white]
                                                                                               
[COLOR="#00FFFF"]High-Elf[/COLOR]                         [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]      [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]$[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR][COLOR="#FFFF00"]$[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]"[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#C0C0C0"]|[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]          [COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]?[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]  
[COLOR="#00FFFF"]Hero[/COLOR]                             [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%%%#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]%#%###%#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#.###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####%[/COLOR]          [COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#\#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR]  
[COLOR="#00FFFF"]Warrior[/COLOR]                          [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF00FF"]![/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%%#[/COLOR]             [COLOR="#606060"]#####.#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]=[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#%##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]###%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] ?[COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR] 
LEVEL [COLOR="#00FF00"]    41[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]}[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]         [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]      [COLOR="#606060"].#######[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]?[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#FFFF00"]/[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] ?[COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####.#[/COLOR] 
NXT [COLOR="#00FF00"]  309846[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%%#%%%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###%#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####.[/COLOR]        [COLOR="#606060"]###%#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#C0C0C0"]|[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"].#[/COLOR] 
AU [COLOR="#00FF00"]  1390789[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]       [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]\[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#C0C0C0"]-[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]][/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR]              [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%%##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]####.#[/COLOR] 
[COLOR="#FFFF00"]/[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]}[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"]=[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]=[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]"[/COLOR][COLOR="#FFFF00"]~[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]([/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]([/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"])[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]][/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]]][/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%%#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%#%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]###[/COLOR]      [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]###[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#%##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#606060"]#\[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"])[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR] 
STR!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/180[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR][COLOR="#FF4040"]=[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%######.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]][/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]########[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]}[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]       [COLOR="#606060"]%%##%.########..[/COLOR] 
INT!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/170[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]##%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#%##%#%[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#C08040"]_[/COLOR][COLOR="#FF00FF"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#%%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%%#%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR] 
WIS!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/130[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%%%..[/COLOR]       [COLOR="#606060"]#######..[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]_[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"][[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]+[/COLOR] 
DEX!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/***[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]###[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]%%%%#...[/COLOR][COLOR="#00FFFF"]{[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].......[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]"[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#######[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]##%.%[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]+[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#####.########.#[/COLOR] 
CON!  [COLOR="#00FF00"]18/210[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]       [COLOR="#606060"]#%%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#00FFFF"]=[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]    [COLOR="#606060"]#%#%[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]=[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]~[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]^[/COLOR][COLOR="#808080"]^[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].....[/COLOR]<[COLOR="#606060"].................[/COLOR] 
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Cur AC [COLOR="#00FF00"]  142[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#804000"]_[/COLOR] [COLOR="#808080"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%.[/COLOR]     [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"]|[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%..[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#######[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]##[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%##.%###.###[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]+[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.####.##[/COLOR] 
HP [COLOR="#00FF00"] 988[/COLOR]/[COLOR="#00FF00"] 988[/COLOR]                     [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#9020FF"]![/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]##%%%.#%#%#%[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]%..[/COLOR][COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]-[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR]   >[COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]%[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"]|[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]%.#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]_[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#.#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]_[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"]#.#..#.[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"].[/COLOR] 
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[COLOR="#00FF00"]Fast (+20)[/COLOR]                       [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR]   [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]##[/COLOR]#.........@[COLOR="#C08040"]'[/COLOR].[COLOR="#FFFF00"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]^[/COLOR][COLOR="#C0C0C0"][[/COLOR].#[COLOR="#606060"].#######.............#.#.#####.##[/COLOR] 
2600' (L52)                      [COLOR="#A0C0D0"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]##[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR][COLOR="#C00000"]$[/COLOR].............#.[COLOR="#008040"]?[/COLOR].[COLOR="#00FF00"]T[/COLOR][COLOR="#008040"]Q[/COLOR]#[COLOR="#606060"].#[/COLOR][COLOR="#9020FF"]![/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#[/COLOR] [COLOR="#606060"]#.###.[/COLOR]  [COLOR="#606060"].###.##[/COLOR][COLOR="#C08040"]'[/COLOR][COLOR="#606060"]#.........[/COLOR] 
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             LF:[COLOR="#C00000"]9[/COLOR]-[COLOR="#FF4040"]9[/COLOR] [COLOR="#00FF00"]Full[/COLOR]                                                                       
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Sometimes Angband freezes as soon as I see Q, sometimes I'm able to get a little bit closer.

I've attached the savegame where Q still lives, so Nick or someone else might replay it. Hope it helps.

Attached Files

Bella2.zip (32.1 KB, 109 views)

**Nick** · September 23, 2017, 23:13

Originally posted by NimrodPE

Sorry for doubleposting but this "Seeing-Quylthulg-Angband-Freezes"-bug occurred again.

Thanks, this is a known bug in teleporting, fixed in development. If you want to continue that game without further crashes, leave that level as soon as possible.

**NimrodPE** · September 24, 2017, 00:56

Thanks Nick, that relieves me.

Well, despite some reloading I cleared the dungeon level. Sometimes I was lucky with the Qs, sometimes I could dig direct beside them to minimize the time we were seeing each other.

After that the next levels didn't freeze the game even when Qs teleported, so I guess I'm on the clear side. At least for now ;D

**dreembeard** · September 24, 2017, 01:43

the trap spotting system of V 4.1.0

Dear devteam (and others interested in game design),

Here's some jerky to chew on: comments (both praise and critique) on the new trap spotting system.

My feelings towards the new system are mixed.
I am glad that the robotic routine of detecting traps on the green band is gone.
And I am very pleased that perception (aka search skill) is finally no longer a junk skill with associated junk items.
But I also have some serious criticism.

The Changes.txt file of v 4.1.0 summarizes the changes to traps as

The general philosophy is that all players will hit traps at some time
Magical trap detection has been removed, except as a spell for mages
Active searching has been removed
Characters have one chance to detect a trap, on seeing the grid it is on; this chance is dependent on searching skill
Traps are either physical or magical, and there is a corresponding split in the player disarming skill
Many new traps have been introduced, and old ones amended
Traps are placed almost exclusively at corridor intersections or other chokepoints
Trap density in vaults is reduced by 75%

My summarized response:
1, 5 : fine.
2, 6, 8: GREAT!
4 : not quite true.
7 : a step in the right direction.
3 : a bridge too far!

Some elaboration:

ad 4: You CAN get a 2nd chance to spot a trap!
If you suspect a trap in your LoS somewhere, and you carry an item in your pack that boosts your search skill, you can put that on. Because of the "visual-field nature" of the trap spotting algorithm, this will not accomplish anything as long as you stay put, but if you move away (far enough to lose sight of the suspect tile(s)), and then come back, you may well spot the trap this time.
A bit more work than simply hitting the 's' key, but it is doable.
ad 7: Hitting traps at random crossings tends to be boring.
Traps are traditionally placed at near-random locations in angband. There are special rooms that always had some, but you could stumble upon a trap anywhere. I always found that so-so. So I welcome any additional restriction to trap placement as a step in the right direction.
The limitation of traps to chokepoints gives a pleasant feeling of safety from traps inside normal rooms. Of course, that secure feeling ends when I leave the room, but here too, I am much less afraid of hitting a trap than in previous versions. But that is probably due to the very "friendly" settings in gamedata/trap.txt, and the early availability of - finally functional! - rings of searching.
I do stumble on traps in corridors too often. Especially when I play a character with lousy perception (like a troll paladin, who starts out with a search skill of 2%), hitting traps over and over again at crossings becomes annoying after a while. Also, for many kinds of traps (all except trap doors, stat loss, elemental, and summoning traps), hitting a trap tends to be almost inconsequential (just let it wear off, and proceed) when there are no monsters in sight. Which is nearly always the case at chokepoints in corridors.
Trap placement at chokepoints is a good heuristic for high trap "productivity", but it scores less well on two other important criteria:
1. Traps should be placed where they are likely to have significant impact;
2. Players must be able to learn where to expect traps.
You may disagree with the latter goal, since that is pretty pointless in the context of a ban on active search. So I will not elaborate on that.
The other goal (significant impact) implies that corridor chokepoints are less suited for certain kinds of traps. Namely aggravation/siren traps (because of the low number of tiles in LoS), holding traps - not yet implemented; think of webs and slippery pits (because of the low number of surrounding floor tiles), and summoning traps (for the same reason). A much better spot for such traps is inside a room, adjacent to a doorway. Thus, there is a fair chance that an unwary player will hit the trap, and good prospects for a significant impact.
Some other good spots for traps inside rooms: on tiles on a straight path between 2 doors, or between a door and a stairway, and on a tile between 2 treasures on the floor (dropped on opposite sites, as bait...). Even when there is ample free floor space surrounding such a trap, there is a pretty big chance that an unwary, unperceptive player will hit it.
ad 3: Removal of the 's'earch command??
I can see the futility of keeping an 's' command that has no effect, but as stipulated above (under "ad 4"), it is not true that v 4.1.0 always offers you one and only one chance to spot a trap. Not with perception boosters in your pack.
And it would be so much easier if I could simply hit the 's' key after putting on that ring of searching, instead of having to move up to 20 steps back, to get out of sight of the suspect tile, and then approach again.

Besides, I got the itchy feeling that the 's'earch command was not removed because it did not fit in the new trap spotting system, but vice versa: that the new trap spotting system was conceived as a crowbar to get rid of the 's'earch command. For if you would ask me to list the weirdest monsters in angband 4.1.0, then Qlzqqlzuup and the new trap spotting system are not far apart. This is one weird beast that you brought into the game!

It's clunky in large rooms with lots of traps, revealing a whole bunch of traps upon entrance, and then nothing. Until you hit one that you missed.
It's awkward in that faraway traps are just as easily spotted as adjacent ones.
It promotes zombified gameplay, in that it makes player proficiency in recognizing a likely spot for a trap completely irrelevant.

But it is probably the best argument one can find to remove active search.
Indeed, if the 's' command were still available, 's'earching would never accomplish anything as long as you do not level up or change your gear. Not even if you search for a million turns. Because where most things in angband are partially random (for a good reason!), spotting a (specific) trap in 4.1.0 is completely deterministic.

Puzzled why you devised something so 'alien' to roguelike games, I perused an old forum thread about traps.
Ah. That explains a lot. Apparently, there are several people in the community who regard active search as inherently problematic, and some players seem to really hate it. Whether that is because they are hasty hobbits lacking patience, or zombified trolls lacking brilliance, or zealous priests who had a vision, or just people with a dysfunctional 's' on their keyboard I dare not say. But statements like "Repetition is evil!" (in some other thread) point towards the first and the penultimate cases.
Whatever the cause, the hardcore software knight of our devteam, always eager to please the crowd, set off in search of a trap spotting system in line with these posters' wishes. And lo and behold, he made one.

Several posts in the thread refer to a percieved problem "of repetitive searching (or detection) being the optimal strategy". This seems to have been the main motivation for the removal of 's'earch.
I claim that this so-called problem is an illusion. It is grounded in a classic mistake of game theory: that humans always strive for optimality. This may be true in restrictive, abstract games like chess, but not in real life. Nor in games that try to emulate real life, such as angband.
For one thing, humans are creatures of habit, who only sparingly exhibit optimizing behavior that deviates from their normal routine.
Also, boredom/impatience should be taken into account in any behavior model for human players in a game like angband, where repetitive action is possible.
So angband players may well get stuck in a routine that used to be good for them (such as dragging stuff up to town to sell it), but they will not get stuck in boring behavior patterns just because these are optimal for a Borg. Such as searching (literally) forever for an elusive hidden door, or performing monster detection every other turn.
Of course, that does not mean that a game that "forces you" to search more than you like can not be annoying; it can, just like a game that forces you to search less than you like.

It does mean that when search proves problematic, gradual adaptation tends to be better than radical change. And it also means that any design guideline for angband that contains the word "optimal" should trigger a siren trap.
Unfortunately, different preachers use different words, so that variants of a flawed optimality argument may slip through undetected. Here's an example. See if you can spot the fishy argument in this fragment from the same thread:

(...) first the problems:
Being able to always detect every trap makes them largely meaningless, except as a matter of diligent spam. Where this is radius one (search) or a wider area (detect).
Having a % chance to detect traps is even worse as it encourages repeat searching/detection or else RNG deaths.
(...)
My proposal: Bring back perception, have traps within LoS detected automatically based on a deterministic comparison with the perception skill.

For those who fail to see the "argumentation trap", or firmly believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, allow me to mold it in the form of a mold:

Having a % chance to XXX is even worse, as it encourages repeat YYY or else RNG deaths.
with XXX="detect traps"; YYY="searching/detection"

Now, please consider these 2 variants:

Having a % chance to meet OoD monsters on lvl 1 is even worse, as it encourages repeat killing town monsters for money to buy more c?w potions or else RNG deaths.
Having a % chance to device failure is even worse, as it encourages repeat scumming for xp on levels 5 and 6 by unlocking doors or else RNG deaths.

Hopefully you will agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with either of these statements...

From the same thread, I learned that my original assumption that the present devteam invented the present trap spotting system is not quite true. As reported by takkaria, the idea of (semi-)deterministic trap spotting stems from Scatha, who posted it back in 2012. However, the original idea was to let distance play a role. That would have led to a less efficient, but probably also less awkward system than the present one.

Nevertheless, IMHO Scatha's original idea on how to solve "the problem with search" was fishy, so it is not surprising that its implementation in v 4.1.0 stinks.
To see that, imagine that somebody would put melee in the very same mold. That would lead to the following angband variant:

Whether the player hits the monster is determined - as in vanilla - by player melee skill and monster armor class. There is some variation in the armor class of individual monsters of the same race, but that is all the randomness there is. Once a monster is created, its ac is fixed. And - unlike vanilla - this variant also employs a fixed (i.e., deterministic) hit criterion. Something like

if player_melee_skill > k * monster_armor_class (where k is some constant), every swing will be a a hit;
otherwise every swing will be a miss.

So when Uli the Dwarf Warrior faces a band of hill orcs in a corridor, he scores a series of maybe 20 hits, killing the first 7 (of 9).
But then he misses... Oops. Now he better run away, because he will NEVER be able to hit that hill orc, let alone vanquish it.

Nobody in his right mind would welcome such a melee system!
(Well,... some speed-divers would dig it perhaps; it kind of matches their playing style.)

Of course, trying to hit an opponent is not the same thing as trying to figure out whether a tile is safe (enough) to move onto. If you consistently miss a monster, that monster will usually help you with your decision what to do next (by hitting you).
Not so with a suspect tile. That just sits there, taunting you, as you 's'earch and come up empty again. And more often than not, that tile is one of many suspects. So I can imagine that hasty hobbits really hate this. But a moratorium on (active) search is just not the answer. It does not solve anything. All it does is reducing 3 options (search again / take the gamble / walk away) to 2.

I find it awkward and annoying if active search is impossible even in situations where I know that there is a threat (because I threw a scroll on the tile in front of me, and it landed on an adjacent tile), and would like to assess how grave that threat is (that is, figure out what kind of trap is there).
It's like being on an "exploration" trip where a tour guide tells you when to look left and when to look right, while juggling with a joystick to operate the clamps that turn the passengers' heads in the proper direction.
Not my kind of trip.

In my view, removal of the 's' command is a psychological painkiller for fast-lane players that is useless for those with more patience, and makes the game frustratingly hard for less well-endowed characters, by removing the option to compensate for a low (search) skill with greater (search) effort. That is probably what I dislike most. That it takes player/character effort (as well as player alertness/smartness) out of the equation. All a player can do now to improve his character's chances at trap spotting is to let it wear more or better perception-boosting gear, or gain more levels.
I find that annoyingly restrictive.

So why has nobody raised this issue before? Well, it never becomes pressing. Nearly all my characters quickly reached a level where their perceptive skill was good enough to spot the most devastating (if not all) traps, even without rings or amulets of searching. If that were otherwise, if the settings in gamedata/trap.txt were a bit more challenging, I bet that there would have been many more protests already.

Summarizing, even though I really like the shift from magical detection to perception, and the way in which perception is finally made into a skill that counts, I do not like the current trap spotting mechanism: too awkward, and too restrictive.

Also, I regard the complete removal of 's' is a classical case of overshoot:
First, search is so prominent (that is, spontaneous perception is so rare) that it is frustrating for some/many players. And out of this frustration, coupled with a misguided view of the nature of the problem, sprouts the call to completely eradicate 's':

You feel a burning desire to kill this monster!

You may feel all you like, and even slaughter all you like. When you are playing. But not when you are programming.
Just tone down the prominence of active search a bit. Or a lot, for all I care.
But do not kill it.

Btw, I have seen more traces of green glutton devteam behavior in recent years (... no, I've not been eating mushrooms ...), but that is off-topic. I may start a separate thread for it.
I also have some suggestions for probabilistic trap spotting. And for a yet greater role for perception.
But I'll put those in separate posts in the current thread. Unless Nick asks me to post it elsewhere. On the Idle Chatter forum, maybe?

But first I really need a food ration now!
Fortunately, I can search for one...

--------------------
Melee is for warriors.
We paladins prefer mêlée.

**Estie** · September 24, 2017, 14:39

When roleplaying, dungeon crawling in a tabletop dnd adventure, there are two ways to treat traps: the dm can describe details and give hints, like for example a suspicious slit or smell, and let the player react to those hints. The outcome will probably depend on how good the player guesses and not so much on dicerolls. Or it is assumed that the rogue is searching for traps while traversing a hostile dungeon, which incurs slower movement rate etc, and when the party approaches a trap, the dm rolls a check to see if they detect it. The outcome of this kind of encounter is determined mostly by dice rolls. Both ways are fine; while the first one offers more interaction, the second one doesnt shift the focus away from other things, combat or story, whatever the campaign is centered around.

With regard to Angband, I look at traps in a similar way. Cleverly placed traps, placed in ways to make the player guess at their location, are great. But I am also fine with the current situation where traps play a lesser part. I can suspend disbelief with regard to distance and have no problem when I, the player, know that in that spot must be a trap, but my dumb halftroll with 2% search has no idea. I walk into that trap and wait for the blindness to end.
Do I walk into that trap when chased by something dangerous, risking death ? Well, no - I cheat a little then; similar to a good dm who doesnt let a player´s character die from a minor roleplay decision.

I wouldnt mind search getting re-established in princple, or traps getting asigned a more major role; but I have a hunch that that would require a lot of work and might change the focus of the game. Whether that new game would really be better would have to be seen. I am very happy with the current trap system; occasionally something hazzardeous is happening because of traps and there is no repetitive routine required to deal with them. So when my rogue has a charge blown up in his face and the dm says "you searched and found nothing", I am not the guy to insist "but I wanted to search more!". I let the game continue.

**Gwarl** · September 24, 2017, 19:49

Dreembeard;

As the guy who proposed the deterministic trap spotting system that you quoted; I feel at least as strongly about deterministic status effects (they are bad and I do not like them).

But in the case of traps, I think the idea was fine. It removed trap-assocated tedium without removing traps altogether. The 'put on ring of searching, move 20 squares and come back' thing - yikes. I didn't think of that.

But I think the better fix is to somehow close that exploit (eg you only roll once to detect the trap the first time you see it, rather than each time you see it).

People were really upset about selling going as well, but the majority opinion was that it's just a chore. I think that's the case with searching too.

**dreembeard** · September 24, 2017, 20:57

(...) So when my rogue has a charge blown up in his face and the dm says "you searched and found nothing", I am not the guy to insist "but I wanted to search more!". I let the game continue.

Never yet
Have I met
A hack-n-slashing troll
So mellow

I guess I play very differently than you do. When I play angband, I'm usually very bent on optimal play, and nearly always half playing, half designing. Thinking how the game could be made more interesting. Making notes. Sometimes I even keep character diaries. So I play really slowly, and accurately.

I played tabletop DnD with friends too, but for me, that's a totally different ball game. More relaxed. More like you play angband, I guess.

**Gwarl** · September 24, 2017, 21:14

Originally posted by dreembeard

When I play angband, I'm usually very bent on optimal play, and nearly always half playing, half designing. Thinking how the game could be made more interesting. Making notes. Sometimes I even keep character diaries. So I play really slowly, and accurately.

Sounds like somebody needs to start work on a variant

**dreembeard** · September 25, 2017, 01:52

Hi Gwarl,

I presume that with "trap-associated tedium" you mean the trap detection on the green band. I do acknowledge that a system like the one you proposed gets rid of such tedium without sacrificing traps. I just don't believe in the necessity to give up search. And I understood that you and other posters on the forum did. Based on what experience? Your search for hidden doors? For at least since vanilla 3.0, I don't believe I ever searched for traps (other than on chests). Very now and then in the early game perhaps. But in my recollection, that was hardly gamewrecking.

Because of my dislike of the green-band routine, I have been pondering about detectionless perception+searching for traps for my own (future) variant. And I think that what I have in mind (basically probabilistic short-range perception depending on distance plus search that is simply boosted perception) has a good chance of being workable, IF the location of traps can be made so that players gradually learn where to expect them. Which is yet to be seen of course; the proof is in the pudding. But that is what I had in mind.

And then I come across the new trap spotting system in V 4.1.0, from which search is completely removed. Without much explanation. At least not in the changes.txt file. And up to this point, all I have seen in the forum discussion are arguments that lay down a conviction that search is bad. Without proof or reference to concrete experiences. Moreover, without any hint that a system based on perception+search has ever been tried out. And the phrasing of the "problem with search" refers to classic gametheoretic optimaility. Which, in my conviction (and that of many others) only applies to very constrained games, which angband is clearly not.

Besides, the players that supposedly went haywire with good ol' search are the neurotic type. When the dm would tell them that they searched and found nothing, they will not step forward and receive the second charge in their face with a shrug, like Estie. Oh no. They 'll drop a scroll on the tile, and as they see it float sideways to a neighboring one, they will retreat in the hope that they find a wand of stone-to-mud to bypass the trap that is apparently there. And that is the best-case scenario. The worst-case is that they stop playing because they can't stand the stress. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about...

All in all, I got - and still have - the impression that there is ample reason to try out the less radical route that I had in mind.

Nevertheless, you may well come out triumphant in the end. Maybe I underestimate the difficulty of tuning the probabilities of spontaneous perception for different traps, and of finding a ruleset for trap placement that makes their location sufficiently predictable, yet not too trivial.
But we should not simply assume that it can't be done. And if it is feasible, a system with perception AND search is better than one with perception alone. If only because it is more natural for humans.

Heck, even deterministic perception as it is now employed in vanilla would be significantly better with search than without , if you define search as slightly boosted perception (which seems realistic). Because that brings player savviness back into the equation. In such a system, searching twice is still pointless, but searching once, at the right spot, may pay off. That does mean that it should also cost something., so let it slow you down for 1+d2 turns.
Provided that you make trap locations yet more predictable, this could be a real improvement. Make it an option, and see what people think!

----------------------
Melee is for warriors.
We paladins prefer mêlée.

**Nick** · September 25, 2017, 02:38

Originally posted by dreembeard

But I'll put those in separate posts in the current thread. Unless Nick asks me to post it elsewhere. On the Idle Chatter forum, maybe?

I'm not going to tell you where to post what

Your point about putting on +search gear is an amusing one, but I think the correct way to deal with it in the current setting is for the player's field of view to be re-scanned when they change their equipment.

You're right that removing active search was seen as one of the benefits of the new trap system. I don't think whether to search or not is a very interesting decision; I certainly don't think whether to search the sixth time or stop at five is an interesting decision. So now the finding of the traps is automatic, and the interesting interaction is what you do once you've found them. Although, of course, you can mimic active searching if you want by repeatedly putting on and taking off your ring of searching...

**Estie** · September 25, 2017, 02:49

Originally posted by Nick

... Although, of course, you can mimic active searching if you want by repeatedly putting on and taking off your ring of searching...

You can inscribe your ring of searching and map the switching of rings to the "s" key...

Bugs and issues in 4.1.0

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