Issues on current master

[Derakon]

Im not sure what you mean. I play randarts only and find them completely adequate, with most runs using 10/12 artis, except 1 RoS and Elven boots. Specifically, lights and amulets tend to be better, and i almost always find weapons better than MoD.

I suspect that you and Estie are at pretty close to opposite ends of the spectrum regarding playstyles. Which in turn suggests that the underlying problem here isn't so much "good randarts aren't being produced by the randart generator", it's that they're rare enough that they simply don't show up by the time Estie's ready to win. It's their rarity and power with respect to egos that is at fault, then; if egos are common and powerful (enough to win with) then fast players will end up with mostly egos. If they're common and weak, or rare, then fast players will be forced to slow down, which I suspect they wouldn't really enjoy (because it basically just means more grinding until the RNG deigns to produce the gear you need to progress).

So in short, make randarts more common, I guess?

[Sky]

Well, i never did get a full answer on my "how are artifacts generated?" thread, but there's still something missing here.

First, i play with preserve on. You can lose artifacts permanently, but you should be able to otherwise get all those artifacts which the RNG generates.

And even if you do rush, the last 30 or so DL will most likely have 3+ greater vaults filled to the brim with great artifacts.
(Rings of power, for example, are waaay more common now)

I suspect the issue isn't that the RNG does not generate enough randarts, but rather that it is generating them, but Estie is not finding them.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

With standarts, in the endgame I'm often using ego armor, principal weapon or launcher, or even all of the above. True, it's even more likely with randarts, but I think it might be because it provides some consistency of control over the resistance holes that is absent without some lucky randarts.

[Estie]

I think the problem is caused by the absence of to-damage modifiers on randarts.

Damage modifiers (this includes extra attacks, but they are very rare) are the best option for each slot because all other modifiers are capped/on diminishing returns. Strictly speaking, even standart rings of power are not top because, given everything else is covered, a damage ring is better. However, it is very likely that a ring of power, while losing damage to the damage ring, opens up some other option, for example allow you to use Gorlim by providing telepathy.
Remove all standarts with damage modifiers and you get the situation as it is now with randarts.

So, why are there no or so very few randarts with +damage ? Is that intended ? Not having one of the best modifiers available for randarts is, I think, the main reason they are bad.

Making damage more common again would probably restore the situation from before Nick´s randart changes, however I am not really happy with that because many items are still ego and therefor known before the game starts.

There was a time when artifacts were substantially better than egos and you ended up with them in almost every slot. Nick said in another post that that was where he wanted to head - by making egos worse. Otherwise, if egos make up ~1/2 of the set - as it is now - it would be great if they got randomized in some way, too.

[Pete Mack]

@Estie--I suspect there was a time when you didn't dive as fast, so you explored more of the artifact space. That said, now that Nick has normalized the power curve for each slot, getting the specifics of each slot is significantly harder. So yes, this means getting damage on rings, gloves, and shields right, and picking weapons with the right damage dice and weight. Getting Bard turned into an x2 sling actually matters now. It didn't with the old randart model.

[Estie]

@Estie--I suspect there was a time when you didn't dive as fast, so you explored more of the artifact space. That said, now that Nick has normalized the power curve for each slot, getting the specifics of each slot is significantly harder. So yes, this means getting damage on rings, gloves, and shields right, and picking weapons with the right damage dice and weight. Getting Bard turned into an x2 sling actually matters now. It didn't with the old randart model.

What do you mean with "normalizing the power curve for each slot" ?

The problem is that it is done only for artifacts, so if there are no artifacts with damage, you use ego items with damage and that defeats the purpose of random items.

[fph]

Coming in the next version: diminishing returns on +dam modifiers.

[Sky]

Before the last randart patch, each standart would "morph" into something else, but would keep a power level similar to the original piece. So you could wind up with Bladeturner on your head, Mediator on your back, Ringil on your neck, and so on.

Now, each slot has a power curve, so that the power level is appropriate for that slot. For example, cloak slots are weaker than armor slots.

[Carnivean]

Now, each slot has a power curve, so that the power level is appropriate for that slot. For example, cloak slots are weaker than armor slots.

Unless there is some bonus not mentioned here, this just guarantees that the items will be the same as the other ego in terms of power. The only difference would be a randomness to the randarts that the egos don't get. Artifacts should be stronger than the average ego item at the level the player is on.

[PowerWyrm]

Coming in the next version: diminishing returns on +dam modifiers.

Coming in the next version: removal of all arts and ego items.

[Estie]

Before the last randart patch, each standart would "morph" into something else, but would keep a power level similar to the original piece. So you could wind up with Bladeturner on your head, Mediator on your back, Ringil on your neck, and so on.

Now, each slot has a power curve, so that the power level is appropriate for that slot. For example, cloak slots are weaker than armor slots.

Ok, that seems to be the case. The best armors are ~500 while the best weapons only ~300. However, I think that resists are vastly overrated and that might be a problem.

But that is of no relevance to the original issue. 300 is plenty of room to get +15 damage or more, but you never see that on armours. Of course, there should be a bias towards more resists on armor and not every game should have an armour with damage, but _some_ off-weapon offense should exist in most randart sets, compareable to the standarts. This is not the case.

[PowerWyrm]

Spotted this error in pile_integrity_fail():

fail_prev = (obj->prev != NULL);
fail_prev = (obj->next != NULL); <-- fail_next

Also... global variables!

[Nick]

Spotted this error in pile_integrity_fail():

fail_prev = (obj->prev != NULL);
fail_prev = (obj->next != NULL); <-- fail_next

Also... global variables!

Thanks. And at least they're static to the file...

[Sky]

why do the small labyrinth levels already have items detected? (as in treasure detect, not detect items)

[Derakon]

why do the small labyrinth levels already have items detected? (as in treasure detect, not detect items)

Because nobody would bother to explore them otherwise.