Issues on current master

[Pete Mack]

roguelike keyset is horked for some menu lists. Attempted to inscribe object 'j' in inventory. Keypress was interpreted as "menu down item."
Worse, when I go to try to read scroll "j", it still interprets it as "menu down", and gives prompted request for first scroll in list.
*Vanilla is currently unplayable* as it stands. For roguelike keyset, this is a priority-0 regression.

[Nick]

roguelike keyset is horked for some menu lists. Attempted to inscribe object 'j' in inventory. Keypress was interpreted as "menu down item."
Worse, when I go to try to read scroll "j", it still interprets it as "menu down", and gives prompted request for first scroll in list.
*Vanilla is currently unplayable* as it stands. For roguelike keyset, this is a priority-0 regression.

Which OS is this?

EDIT: OK, my testing so far has only found this behaviour when there is no "j" item. What I see is

• If there is an appropriate "j" item, that is selected;
• If not, the "j" keypress is interpreted as down-arrow (as are the other roguelike direction keys in similar circumstances).

I believe this is correct behaviour.

[Pete Mack]

Windows, though that shouldn't matter.

Which OS is this?

[Pete Mack]

It seems to be intermittent. I just tried again, and it's currently working. I've seen it happen twice now, once just now, and once a while back on the options menu.

[Estie]

the Jewel of Amarindin <+1, +2>
-------------------------------
+1 dexterity.
+1 stealth.
+2 searching skill.
+2 infravision.
+1 speed.
Provides resistance to poison, sound, nexus.
Sustains dexterity, constitution.


Min Level 45, Max Level 90, Generation chance 19, Power 150, 0.3 lbs
Random amulet of power 150.


the Jewel of Umlaith <+1, +2>
-----------------------------
+1 dexterity.
+1 stealth.
+2 searching skill.
+2 infravision.
+1 speed.
Provides resistance to poison, shards, nexus.
Provides protection from fear.
Sustains dexterity.


Min Level 21, Max Level 84, Generation chance 10, Power 141, 0.3 lbs
Random amulet of power 141.


What happened here is that the item the artifact amulets were based on are normally higher powered than the pool assigned to these artifacts, so you end up with bad amulets of trickery.

Picking base egos to add something on top is dubious unless the randart is much more powerfull than the ego to begin with; otherwise you make sure that there are _really_ no random items in the game. If you pick a low powered item, say an amulet of wisdom, as base, there is less of a problem because a) there are only 2 fixed properties - +wis and sustain wis - and more over you have room to add something like 2-3 different attributes to make the artifact distinctly different from the base ego item.

I am sorry, but I like the old artifact algorithm "based on standart" a lot better. The new ones really just feel like playing with the no artifact option on. Why is it necessary that all artifacts share their properties with an ego ?
That really cuts down on the amount of combinations possible and removes any chance for a kit of unusual combination.

I understand the desire to give the randart set some kind of structure and not go completely random. However, using the existing ego bias as skeleton is terrible.

Here is an idea of a way to give structure that does not mirror the ego set:

Make a list of all possible properties and when creating a new randart set, sort it randomly. Now for each slot, roll a number on that list. When creating an artifact for a given slot, prefer properties that are close to the one with the given number (gaussian distribution).

For example, a list might include searching(7) strength(8) resist poison(9). Suppose the game rolls 8 for amulets and wants to create an amulet. Then it picks properties from the list with the most likely being str, followed by searching and res poison.

This is very raw; it can be finetuned in various ways, for example making 2 lists - one with weak and one with strong properties - and giving randarts a varying amount of picks from each list, depending on the power level.

Another way would be to list the properties as above and use the current algorithm (based on egos), except you shift along that list. So for example, if you create an amulet and determine it is based on trickery, instead of using resist poison (9) you use (9 + s) where s is a (randomly determined ?) shift, which might point to resist chaos or whatever depending on the list order. If you sort properties by their power (not randomly), you somewhat preserve the power between randart sets.

Other ways can be devised; I am as always happy to throw out ideas, unfortunately I cant code.

[Estie]

Level creation gone wrong:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=82782600469305870208

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=07947287969857477471

Save file and corresponding randart file. Loading the save file on my computer works, but first attempts at doing something (like mapping) crashed the game. Somhow, digging worked in my last attempt.

Edit: Argh, it seems this is the status before the recall. Unfortunately I have lost the bogus level (it was a town square "vault" with nothing but granite around and me starting in permanent wall far away). Sorry.

[wobbly]

4.0.3-768-gc1d18b2

Somethings up with rods of disable traps. Zapped 1 down the corridor at a trap door, it disappeared, when I got to the square it says "You disable the trap door".

[Nick]

What happened here is that the item the artifact amulets were based on are normally higher powered than the pool assigned to these artifacts, so you end up with bad amulets of trickery.

Picking base egos to add something on top is dubious unless the randart is much more powerfull than the ego to begin with; otherwise you make sure that there are _really_ no random items in the game. If you pick a low powered item, say an amulet of wisdom, as base, there is less of a problem because a) there are only 2 fixed properties - +wis and sustain wis - and more over you have room to add something like 2-3 different attributes to make the artifact distinctly different from the base ego item.

OK, there's actually a pretty simple change to the current code - see what you think.

Currently, the process goes

1. Choose a base item
2. Copy all it's properties across to the new artifact
3. If it's jewellery, keep the properties but move it to be one of the "special" kinds, (so your amulets are both "Jewel of ...")
4. Add extra properties until it has sufficient power

This is fine for weapons and armor, because their basic properties are their damage dice or armor class (and extras on only a few things like elven cloaks and blades of chaos). The problem with jewellery, though, is that it has no really basic properties.

My suggestion, then, is for jewellery only to choose one of the special kinds as base item. That way, they all start with nothing and get completely random properties added. As a bonus, it simplifies the code

[Pete Mack]

Now that the slot balance issue is apparently solved, the biggest trouble I've had with randarts is the mismatch between base weapon type and nominal artifact power. The usual result is that too many weapons end up as either glorified defenders (too many resists and stat bonuses), or glorified weak Gondolin weapons (too many slays and brands.)

The real problem here is base damage needs to be a significant factor in weapon power, in all but a limited set of (usually high CON) defensive weapons.

[Estie]

Starting out with no base properties will certainly solve.

It seems there is no way for artifacts to pick up (substantial) +damage ?
I see many + accuracy randarts but none or very low (like +3) damage mods, which makes rings of damage and gauntlets of power/combat the theoretical best option in slot.

[Pete Mack]

@Estie--given that I end up with gloves of Combat (or occasionally Cammithrim) in the late game even with standard artifacts, that hardly counts as a change. I haven't seen one of the two big artifact gloves in years. That said, I agree lack of damage on artifact rings (and gloves) is a real problem.

[Derakon]

@Estie--given that I end up with gloves of Combat (or occasionally Cammithrim) in the late game even with standard artifacts, that hardly counts as a change. I haven't seen one of the two big artifact gloves in years. That said, I agree lack of damage on artifact rings (and gloves) is a real problem.

By "two big artifact gloves" do you mean Cambeleg and Fingolfin? I don't recall them being especially rare the last time I played standarts. *shrug*

[Pete Mack]

@Derakon--I haven't seen them in at least my last dozen serious games, and I haven't used randarts in that time. They are very much not 'gimme' items. As some confirmation, none of the winners of the current competition saw them. I agree they show up occasionally, but they are pretty rare overall.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

@Derakon--I haven't seen them in at least my last dozen serious games, and I haven't used randarts in that time. They are very much not 'gimme' items. As some confirmation, none of the winners of the current competition saw them. I agree they show up occasionally, but they are pretty rare overall.

Cambeleg didn't show up in my comp game, but it did in the game I played a couple days ago while testing out the new nightlies. They are rare, but not so rare as Ringil or Deathwreaker (I did find DW in the comp). It seems right to me that the top artifacts are rare finds.

[Estie]

Damage modifier is all but guaranteed on gloves and there are other items with it - Haradrim, the helm that used to aggaravate, and of course the rings of power have a smallish amount. If you find any of these, you are going to try to incorporate them in to the kit because all other modifiers either cap out or are on diminishing returns. The benefit from damage is linear.