Randart Players PLS REPLY

[Estie]

Thanks. I got many error messages at first, probably my various attempts had caused chaos, but with a new install it works now.

[sandtrap]

Couldn't the setting "use previous set" be automated as follows:
During the generation of randart.txt make a copy to artifact.txt.

Easy to code (I very much like the setting).

You need to

1. Copy the randart set you want to artifact.txt (not randart.txt) in your user folder
2. Start a game with randarts set to no

This works because the game is set up to use datafiles in the user folder in preference to the standard ones in the gamedata folder.

[sandtrap]

A little more complicated

And Clear the randart birth setting so it uses the artifact file on the next game.

Wow that just got ugly.

Couldn't the setting "use previous set" be automated as follows:
During the generation of randart.txt make a copy to artifact.txt.

Easy to code (I very much like the setting).

[Nick]

I'm not saying the current method is the only way to do it, but it does solve the problems that other methods I looked at had. Things I had to consider included:

• Any artifact.txt file in the user directory will be treated as the standard artifact set;
• If you leave a standardly named file in the user directory to be read by randart games, then you can't have two randart games going at once (and someone is bound to want to);
• It's much easier for the game to read a file with a standard name;

and there is also a raft of issues to do with the fact that objects like the Phial are defined by the standard artifact.txt.

Also, even if it's a small amount of messing about with files, you still have just as much ability to use the previous set of randarts - plus you can go beck to earlier sets if you like.

[Huqhox]

I've had a quick play of this and it works really well. Liking the curses on the randarts especially, and things like artifact lanterns make it a little more interesting.

Looking through the files, is there any scope for randomising activations and effects? There are all sorts of combinations of bolt/ball that could be generated or even some different slays or brands. Keep most as they are but maybe have 10% that are randomised. I think people play randarts because they like something different in each game and that would definitely add to that. Currently when you get a randart with an activation you think "oh yes that comes from..."

Overall great work. Thanks Nick

[quarague]

First one more vote for randarts because they give increased variety.
One observation for base resistances. There are a lot of standarts that give all 4 base resistances plus some other stuff. Hence in most games you will wear at least one such artifact through most of the game. Immunities on the other hand are very rare.
With randarts getting all 4 base resistance on a single item is very rare. Hence it is quite common to wear a high end ego item covering all 4 base resistances all the way to the end game. Immunities seem a lot more common, most chars will have 1 or even several immunities on their standard kit.
These observations come from playthroughs and not from statistical analysis, so I may have gotten untypical results.
I think the randart generator should have the single property 'all 4 base res' as an option for items. Probability for immunities should be somewhat lower and power should be a little higher.
But these are both relatively minor tweaks to the randart generator.

[Nick]

I think the randart generator should have the single property 'all 4 base res' as an option for items. Probability for immunities should be somewhat lower and power should be a little higher.

The randart generator has a category for all four base resists, but only for body armour. Given the number of times the four do appear together (on a quick count, about half the artifacts with RElec had the other three), I think you're right.

[Derakon]

Personally I like the difficulty of trying to piece together the four base resists from scattered miscellaneous items, and usually don't have to resort to using shield/armor of Elvenkind/Resistance for too long.

[Estie]

About immunities being common:

I think that in the standard set the usual, common "good" artifacts that everyone ends up using dont have immunities (Azaghal is crappy as a weapon, Deathwreaker rare; usually you use Wrath or Pain). For immunities to appear in a setup, they have to be on an otherwise good item, which is not unlikely to happen on randarts, or on a very low value slot like glove or amulet that you dont mind sacrificing to gain an immunity.

You can look at the standard set as a randart set that rolled its immunities mostly on bad or rare items.

[Werbaer]

I think that in the standard set the usual, common "good" artifacts that everyone ends up using dont have immunities

With the standard set, i use Thorin with most winners. And often one of the Elven Rings, too. That's about 1.5 immunities per game.

You can look at the standard set as a randart set that rolled its immunities mostly on bad or rare items.

Ok, i checked the dumps of my 11 non-randart winners in 4.0.x. Total of 17 immunities in 11 games:

01: Priest: Acid, Fire (Thorin, Narya)
02: Priest: Acid, Fire (Thorin, Narya)
03: Warrior: Acid (Thorin)
04: Priest: Fire (Firestar)
05: Ranger: Acid, Fire, Cold (Thorin, Narya, Nenya)
06: Mage: - {prefered 2nd speed ring over Vilya}
07: Mage: Acid, Fire, Cold (Thorin, Narya, Turmil)
08: Mage: Acid, Fire (Thorin, Narya)
09: Paladin: Cold (Nenya)
10: Rogue: Acid (Thorin)
11: Priest: Acid (Thorin)
--- 17 immunities in 11 games 
    8x Acid, 6x Fire, 3x Cold, 0x Lightning

To compare, the collection of immunities of my randart winners:

--- 44 immunities in 33 games
    7x Acid, 13x Fire, 15x Cold, 9x Lightning
    2.3x Acid, 4.3x Fire, 5x Cold, 3x Lightning per 11 games

That's much less acid immunities, less fire immunities, more cold immunities, and more lightning immunities. And less immunities on average than with the standard set.

Nonetheless, despite the facts, i have the feeling that they are more common in the randart sets. Maybe i really see more immunities, but on junk artifacts that are too weak to even carry as a swap.

[Estie]

Interesting statistic! The reason standarts win is Thorin, which is an excellent shield that also comes with (realatively worthless) acid immunity. I had in fact forgotten about it when I made my previous post, mostly because I dont value acid immunity highly.

If we disregard acid immunity, it becomes 9/11 for stadart and 12/11 for randart games.

I now suspect that "more immunities in randart games" is just a subjective perception.

On a side note, impressive list there I thought I was the only one playing that many vanilla games.

[Derakon]

Newbie players tend to value acid immunity disproportionately highly, since they're so sensitive to equipment damage.

And yeah, Thorin is ridiculously good. Even without acid immunity it has +4 STR, +3 CON, free action, fear immunity, and a couple nice-to-have resists. A randart shield with just +4 STR/+3 CON would almost certainly get significant use.

[Huqhox]

I'm playing on the latest randart build (that writes the randart.txt file) and have written a program to compare randart.txt to artifact.txt to see what the broad brush differences are. I've only played one game so only have one set of randarts to go on but it certainly generated more immunities in the randarts:

Immunity to Acid 5 (+1)
Immunity to Cold 7 (+3)
Immunity to Electricity 6 (+1)
Immunity to Fire 7 (+0)

The number after the immunity is the number of artifacts with that immunity in the randarts. The number in brackets is the comparison to standarts.

The resistances are mostly all also more common, all except for fire (and disen is the same):

Resist Acid 41 (+6)
Resist Chaos 20 (+10)
Resist Cold 44 (+3)
Resist Dark 32 (+2)
Resist Disenchantment 15 (+0)
Resist Electricity 43 (+12)
Resist Fire 41 (-4)
Resist Light 34 (+11)
Resist Nether 18 (+5)
Resist Nexus 15 (+4)
Resist Poison 32 (+16)
Resist Shards 8 (+1)
Resist Sound 12 (+5)

What is noticeable is that any malus that the standarts have has been uniformly dropped in the randarts:

Constitution -5 0 (-1)
Dexterity -3 0 (-3)
Intelligence -3 0 (-2)
Speed -10 0 (-1)
Stealth -1 0 (-4)
Stealth -4 0 (-1)
Strength -3 0 (-2)
Wisdom -3 0 (-2)
Wisdom -4 0 (-1)

On the other hand the +15 speed bonus from Fëanor has also been nerfed in my set

I might roll a few more sets up and gather some proper stats

[PowerWyrm]

Maluses will disappear because there's no "mixed" option in randart generation. Either the artifact has a negative power and it'll get mostly curses, or its power is positive and only bonuses are added (except for 1 out of 5000 randarts which get a random curse).

[Huqhox]

Maluses will disappear because there's no "mixed" option in randart generation. Either the artifact has a negative power and it'll get mostly curses, or its power is positive and only bonuses are added (except for 1 out of 5000 randarts which get a random curse).

I figured as much and I did forget to note that curses have been added.

It was really the general addition of resistances and immunities that was relevant to the discussion