Randart Players PLS REPLY

[Derakon]

Does this also mean that randart light sources would always be torches or lanterns? Or are you adding Phial, Star, and Arkenstone as base items? If so, would they be generable in-game as non-artifacts?

Can we at least enforce that any randart light sources not need to be refuelled? It'd be kind of a dick move to generate an amazing randart torch with only 5000 turns of light and expect the player to micro-optimize whether or not they have it equipped, in order to keep it going as long as possible. Even with lanterns, refuelling is more a source of tedium than anything else outside the very early game. Kind of like the hunger "clock".

[Sky]

i dont actually know how the system works, because i'm ok with an item giving me +3 to a stat, +4 when it's really meant to dominate in that stat, +5 is godlike, +6 is already ridiculous, +7 is a bug, +8 and over is a broken game.
it looks like the artifacts like to give the same +value to a whole bunch of stats, which is a problem with +spd.
i'm patiently waiting for boots +10 spd, +10 CON.

[StMicah]

So you get some great sounding names, like

the Flames of Brenimros [+6], and
the Open Wounds of Faelona [+7] <+4, +1>

but also some less good ones like

the Slow Digestion of Losgarcar <+3, +5, +1>

There is still work to be done here

Ok, I like this idea because it seems like there'd be more variation now among rings, lights, etc. and, for those of us who play randarts regularly, some nifty or disappointing finds.

Would it then be possible to find an artifact light on a wooden torch? Oh, the frustration of finding an immunity or big stat bonus that is "balanced" against a number of turns and then have it disappear when its turns are used up. (I chuckled uneasily when I once found a torch{??} that turned out a to have a sticky-curse playing ironman with a rogue. I quickly equipped it because I thought the rune was "brightness". Good thing it disappeared when it was burned up.)

[Nick]

Does this also mean that randart light sources would always be torches or lanterns? Or are you adding Phial, Star, and Arkenstone as base items? If so, would they be generable in-game as non-artifacts?

Well, it's up for grabs, really. The whole business of special artifacts is kind of a side-channel to the usual object generation process, so how far you unify the two is an open question; and no matter how far you go down that road, there will be a raft of choices to be made as to precise implementation.

[Mondkalb]

Artifact torches should be everburning of course!

[PowerWyrm]

Here's the randart system I use for PWMAngband: every static art gets a corresponding randart based on its power, keeping any activation of the base item, eventually adding one where there is none on the base item. This means no base item rerolling since every eligible base item has at least one corresponding static art, and no randart for base items that don't have a corresponding static art (torch, lantern, ring, amulet). This is simple and works well.

Here's the randart system in TomeNET: every base item can be turned into a randart, power is completely random, no activation is ever added so base items with an activation keep that activation. You get randart torches, lanterns, rings, amulets, but no randart specials (phial and co). This also works well because every base item can be turned into an ego. There are different light sources (torches and lanterns are fuelable, dwarven lanterns and feanorian lamps are permanent), so the resulting randart keeps its "fuelable" flag. This would just mean putting back refuelable torches in the game.

[luneya]

Does this also mean that randart light sources would always be torches or lanterns? Or are you adding Phial, Star, and Arkenstone as base items? If so, would they be generable in-game as non-artifacts?

Can we at least enforce that any randart light sources not need to be refuelled? It'd be kind of a dick move to generate an amazing randart torch with only 5000 turns of light and expect the player to micro-optimize whether or not they have it equipped, in order to keep it going as long as possible. Even with lanterns, refuelling is more a source of tedium than anything else outside the very early game. Kind of like the hunger "clock".

Some of the old versions of Angband allowed torches to be refueled, using another torch as the fuel source. This made things like torches of brightness actually equal to lanterns rather than being just more junk. It would also be appropriate if we wanted to include artifact or high-ego torches. I think it was removed because people complained that it wasn't realistic, but I disagree with that perspective: for a magical torch, the magic could be in a metal holder or the like, allowing the user to swap out the actual wooden torch with impunity.

But it would also be perfectly fair to require that artifact lights be everburning. Or to keep the present artifact light types, rather than having artifact lanterns and torches.

[Nick]

Note the new randart setup detailed in this post; also note that there is no change to the generation algorithm yet, just the management of sets of randarts.

[Egavactip]

If you play with randarts, please tell me

• Why you play randarts instead of standarts (whether sometimes or always)
• What you like about current randarts
• What you don't like about current randarts
• Any other things you think might be relevant

I am planning to update the randart code; I have some ideas, but I want to get players' opinions first before saying anything. Please, if you play with randarts, give me as much info as possible, and I will be less likely to break them horribly and make you hate me and your life.

I play ONLY with randarts because I think the game's replayability is much more limited without them. They create an exciting element, because you never know what you might find.

I would like to see Randarts that can only be used by one class. For example, Magician's Staves, which would be weapons (for convenience's sake) that only mages could wield. Other classes could each have their own single category of items for that class only.

I would like to see a game option that could be toggled in which players could name their own Randarts (like Gandalf and Bilbo did) rather than have names randomly generated.

Most of all, I don't want to see Randarts radically changed the way some other things are being radically changed.

[Egavactip]

OK, looks like people don't want them to change much. What I intend to do, then, is

• Fully randomise rings, amulets and lights
• Incorporate the new curses properly
• Sundry code improvements that might lead to minor differences in the algorithm

and then see how we're going. Some possibilities for later consideration include

• Some tweaking of the current artifact set (along the lines of PowerWyrm's thinking)
• Remove the weak brands
• Remove off-type slays, brands, extra might, extra shots and extra blows

I want lights more randomized than they are currently but I don't want them "FULLY" randomized. I want the Phial to always have the phial room-lighting effect, the Arkenstone to always have the level mapping effect, etc.

[Derakon]

I would like to see Randarts that can only be used by one class. For example, Magician's Staves, which would be weapons (for convenience's sake) that only mages could wield. Other classes could each have their own single category of items for that class only.

Could you expand on why you want this? I always hated finding class-specific gear in other games because it was invariably for the wrong class. How would this not just end up creating a set of items where 5/6ths of them are guaranteed to be junk?

[bio_hazard]

Seems like you could add a class-specific bonus rather than making it completely useless for other classes.

[Mondkalb]

I play ONLY with randarts because I think the game's replayability is much more limited without them. They create an exciting element, because you never know what you might find.

I would like to see Randarts that can only be used by one class. For example, Magician's Staves, which would be weapons (for convenience's sake) that only mages could wield. Other classes could each have their own single category of items for that class only.

I would like to see a game option that could be toggled in which players could name their own Randarts (like Gandalf and Bilbo did) rather than have names randomly generated.

Most of all, I don't want to see Randarts radically changed the way some other things are being radically changed.

Nick could pull something or other from FAangband, there are unique staves.

[Egavactip]

Could you expand on why you want this? I always hated finding class-specific gear in other games because it was invariably for the wrong class. How would this not just end up creating a set of items where 5/6ths of them are guaranteed to be junk?

Everything is junk if it doesn't help you. Magic books are junk if I am a fighter. Much of the gear that you find will become junk before your game is over.

That is not a valid counter-argument.

Reasons to have stuff like that include more class specialization and more variety.

[Derakon]

Everything is junk if it doesn't help you. Magic books are junk if I am a fighter. Much of the gear that you find will become junk before your game is over.

That is not a valid counter-argument.

Your statement is certainly true, but somehow there's something...almost offensive, I guess? about the game generating an item that would be completely awesome for somebody else. Items that are "bad, therefore junk" (straight downgrades of items you already have) are just a fact of life for a difficult-to-balance loot system, but items that are "good, but not for you, therefore junk" are more irritating.

Reasons to have stuff like that include more class specialization and more variety.

See now, these are things that I can get behind. Can we accomplish this without creating class-specific gear?